[Avodah] Minhag Avos and Sephardim

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 09:56:18PM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
: I completely agree. As you once said previously, during the time of
: the rishonim, the Ashkenazi minhag we know in the Rama took "forever"
: to form, gradually over many generations.

: My contention is, however, that until a new minhag ha-maqom forms, we
: cannot create the unprecedented concept of minhag avot in the
: meantime...

What do you think the Ashkenazim did back when there was no single norm?
My point was that AFAIK, this isn't "unprecedented". Rather, relying on
zeidi's minhag hamaqom is the normal way of managing until your current
setting has a minhag.

Your assertion that "there is no such thing as 'minhag avot'" (to quote
your blog) would require you going through every instance of the idiom
and proving that it only refers to the taqanah of YT sheini. However,
see AhS OC 150:9 (on the subject of where to put the bimah and which
way people should face in shul), who sources minhag avos in "she'al
avikha veyagedkha".

Note that in your assertion you are also presuming to know how halakhah
works better than did RMF, eg in his teshuvah about someone who davens
Nusach "Sfard" being allowed to switch to Ashkenaz, or teshuvos about how
to run a minyan where some people wear tefillin on ch"m and some not.
See the Rashba (the newer one from kesav yad) #346 who invokes minhag
avos (the topic is miqva'os). The Roqiach (310). The Mei'ir Sukkah 26a
"Shomerei haIr" who says that sitting in the sukkah on the first night
in the rain is minhag avos. Or Chasam Shofer EhE 2 (vol 4) teshuva
67. Or Yabia Omer V, OC #41, "venahagu hakol shelo liqaneis lebeis
hamerchatz" during the sevah'ua shechil bo 9 beAv "ve'asur leshanos minhag
avos". Which I think (now that I see Yechaveh Daas 1:38) is actually
a quote of the Ramban's Toras haAdam 81a. Mishpetei Uziel YD (vol 1)
#6 who quotes the Rivash about accepting a peshat in the gemara that
fits minhag avos over the peshat of the ge'onim. Or MU YD (vol 2) #22,
where he cites "lo titosh toras imekha" as the source for minhag avos.
Etc, etc, etc...

What we do find is that minhag hamaqom trumps minhag avos. But here
there is no minhag hamaqom. Therefore, what we are doing is what was
done in early Ashekanaz, among Sepharadim in the early 1500s, etc...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
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