[Avodah] Yom Tov Sheni for Olim LeReget to the Beit Mikdash

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:08am EST, Zev Sero wrote:
: Of course they *knew* the cheshbon, and not just the grossly simplified
: model that we use, but the actual astronomical calculations that predict
: where and when the moon really will be visible...

Similarly, on Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:35am GMT, R Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
:> R' Chananeil / R' Bachayei: we used an algorithm from day 1, this being
:>    the essence of the mitzvah
...
: Where does Rabbeinu Chananel say that an algorithm was used? All
: he says is that the cheshbon was used, and cheshbon and algorithm are
: not one and the same....

I'm not sure how to understand R' Bachayei if we asert they aren't.

There are a number of ways the Sanhedrin could use the cheshbon:

1- Not at all

2- It was al pi re'iyah, but they could use the cheshbon to verify the
plausability of the eidus.

3- It was al pi cheshbon, but they took license with it as needed.

4- The calendar was fully fixed by the cheshbon.

R' Bachayei says that the iqar mitzvah of qidush hachodesh is al pi
cheshbon. I would think that rules out the first two, and possibly even
the third. The question would be when did other things arise that
justified not doing the iqar mitzvah, and (to get back to the subject
line) would they arise RC Tishrei or Nissan such that sefeiqa deyoma
becomes a problem.

OTOH, #3 seems compelling if the length of Elul was set by Anshei Keneses
haGefdolah and yet Chazal discuss exceptions.

Yes, the formula for computing the molad need not yeild our particular
algorithm for deciding Rosh Chodesh, but basing the new month on
the formula does mean some algorithm was used, no? Am I missing
something? Perhaps my list of options is incomplete?

In fact, given that we have evidence that Chazal argue about exceptions to
lo adu rosh all the way until half a generation before Hillel Nesi'ah, we
are compelled to say that the algorithm we now use wasn't the one they did
-- even according to R' Bechayei who seems to me to say they used one.

BTW, a point in favor of R' Bechayei's position is from Machar Chodesh.
According to the Y-mi (don't ask me where, I don't recall) "hachodesh
hasheini" was the 2nd day of Rosh Chodesh. See the targum ad loc.
David and Yehonasan knew in advance that it was going to be a two day
RC.

Also, if they weren't using an algorithm, what was done during galus
Bavel?

Returning to RZS:
:>Proof of Chazal's using this ability we see in Chazal's decision to 
:>limit the time of when the Eidim can come forth.

: What kind of proof is that?  All it shows is that BD is able to
: arrange for a long month by the simple expedient of not being there
: when the eidim arrive.  After all, the Torah doesn't regulate their
: working hours!  And if they don't hear testimony from eidim they
: *can't* declare a short month, so perforce the month will be long...

I'm not sure that's a plausible possibility. What would it take,
cloud coverage over the entire area within travel distance?

: But how do you get from there to a right to declare a rosh chodesh
: without eidim, based simply on cheshbon and/or tzorech hatzibur?
: Tzorech hatzibur can be taken into account for ibbur shana, but for
: ibbur chodesh?

Rabbah bar Shemuel makes this distinction. In short, if they have a
right to modify the calendar, it's not for ulterior motives.

Abayei says that R' Yehudah says that R' Yochanan says that we can
intimidate people into testifying that they saw the moon in order to
make Elul or Adar short.

Beqitzur, the question isn't yes or no, but the topic of a machloqes.

...
: Where do you get this?  There is not the slightest hint of it in the
: mishneh, or in any commentary that I've seen.  It's clear from the
: mishneh that the machlokes was about metzius: was it scientifically
: possible for the eidim to have seen what they claimed to have seen.

The whole story is contrary to the notion that Elul was already of fixed
length. That aside...

R' Gamliel knew the cycle of the moon. He is the one who produced the
chart, no? Do you think he didn't know that it was impossible? It seems
R' Gamliel intentionally acccepted iffy testimony.

Which gets us back to whether one can force a short month.

: R Yehoshua accepted R Dosa ben Horkinas's claim that it was impossible,
: and therefore that R Gamliel had no right to accept their testimony,
: and therefore that the BD had no choice but to declare a 30-day Elul,
: while R Gamliel maintained that his astronomical knowledge was better
: that R Dosa's, and the testimony was indeed plausible, and there was
: no reason to disbelieve it.  He did *not* give any reason to prefer
: one result over the other, and nor did he assert any halachic authority
: to knowingly accept false eidim...

"Afilu meizidim"!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
micha at aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
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From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
To: avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Yom Tov Sheni for Olim LeReget to the Beit Mikdash
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:      On a related matter, Tosafos in P'sachim 58b, d.h. K'ilu, says that Lo AD"U Rosh (or, rather, Lo D"U -- he says nothing about Sunday) was practiced during the time of kiddush al pi r'iya.  This does not imply that Lo BD"U Pesach was in effect, since it is not an independent rule, but a consequence of Lo AD"U Rosh and the fixed number of days we now have between Pesach and Rosh Hashana.  Today, if Pesach would be Monday, then RH would perforc be Wednesday. When r'iyah was used, a Monday Pesach did not automatically result in a Wednesday Rosh Hashana, since, e.g., Tammuz could have had 30 days, causing RH to be Thursday, or Av could have had 29, so that RH would be Tuesday. . 
:      As for Rabban Gamliel's Yom Kippur, as R. Zev Sero pointed out, it wasn't an attempt to manipulate the calendar.  Witnesses came on the thirtieth, and he was m'kadesh the new month (otherwise, the old one would automatically have been a thirty-day month).  Then, when the moon was not visible that night, R. Yehoshua contended that it proved that the witnesses must have been wrong, and he therefore held that the month should indeed have been thirty days and Rosh Chodesh should be on the thirty-first.  However, he was informed by R.Akiva that whether R. Gamliel's kiddush was based on true or false witnesses, what was done was valid and could not be undone because "atem afilu muta'in."
: EMT
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Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
micha at aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 03:48:53PM +0000, rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com wrote:
: REMT:
: > On a related matter, Tosafos in P'sachim 58b, d.h. K'ilu, says that
: > Lo AD"U Rosh (or, rather, Lo D"U -- he says nothing about Sunday) was
: > practiced during the time of kiddush al pi r'iya. This does not imply
: > that Lo BD"U Pesach was in effect, since it is not an independent rule,
: > but a consequence of Lo AD"U Rosh and the fixed number of days we now
: > have between Pesach and Rosh Hashana.

: Question:
: How strictly wad LO AD"U or LO D"U applied?

: If you have a strict LO AD"U, then sfeiqa deyoma is de facto limitted
: to the case of Mon. Vs. Tues. [Which as we have it is only 1/9 possibiity]

: > As for Rabban Gamliel's Yom Kippur, as R. Zev Sero pointed out, it
: > wasn't an attempt to manipulate the calendar. Witnesses came on the
: > thirtieth, and he was m'kadesh the new month (otherwise, the old one
: > would automatically have been a thirty-day month). Then, when the moon
: > was not visible that night, R. Yehoshua contended that it proved that
: > the witnesses must have been wrong, and he therefore held that the
: > month should indeed have been thirty days and Rosh Chodesh should be
: > on the thirty-first. However, he was informed by R.Akiva that whether
: > R. Gamliel's kiddush was based on true or false witnesses, what was done
: > was valid and could not be undone because "atem afilu muta'in."

: I dunno.

: Re: The first 2
: R Yochanan Ben Nuri says "eidei sheqer heim" because their internal
: eidus was contradictory. As such AFAIK their eidus is passul. But RG
: said they simply were mistaken

: In the second R Dosa b Hyrcanos says Sheqer re: the moon's
: disappearance...

: This is how I understand P'shat:

: This mihsnah is saying RG took very "flaky" eidim and accepted their
: edus because of his cheshbon, something that comes accross to me as
: "The ends justify the means" in that «wink wink» the eidim were really not
: solid eidim but RG "heard what he wanted to hear and disregarded the rest"

: And no one defended his tactic! R Aqiva only defended his Authority to
: "pull shtick" [so to speak] because what's done is done even be'ta'us.

: No one defended him by saying : "RG was simply someich on palginan
: dibbura" etc.

: Technically the eidim gave a piece of emes but the on the whole the
: eidus was really passul as "eidei sheqer heim"

: Thus, RG arrived at a correct verdict by dubious means. And afaik no one
: defended his tactics, only they told R Yehoshua not to deviate from the
: results lest we break up into sects. IOW we cannot have two calendars
: even if RG was "playing fast and loose"

: Limmud z'chus:
: Now RG might have felt compelled to get in the qiddush Hachodesh "on
: time" and extenuating curcumstances may have pressed him to pull this
: "fast one.". So there is room to be melamed zechus, But his colleagues
: did. not seem to do so. Only later generations were more forgiving

: My 2 Cents

: PS See artscroll yad avraham RH 2:8 [P. 53 in old edition]

: Also see above that the Aruch Laner that states "New moon is never
: visible in the morning"

Tangent: When teaching yom 4, it's more honest to teach our children
that the moon rules at night because that's the only time it dominates.
We teach out children (not just Jews) that the sun is out during the day
and the moon is out at night, but really the moon is equally up during
the day as the night. Closer to Rosh Chodesh, it's up mostly during the
day; closer to the 15th, it's up mostly at night. Overall, it's evenly
split.

Then we get this idea stuck in our heads that doesn't match reality, nor
can be peshat in Bereishis 1:16.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:21:09PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: BTW is the shitah of RT allowing women to say a beracha on mitzvat aseh
: she-hazman gerama connected with teh RT on minhag?

Connected, yes. An instance of, no. We don't find that women only make
berakhos on mitzvos where it's commonplace for them to perform them. IOW,
most Ashk women make birkhos hamitzvah without a chiyuv or even a minhag.

The Brisker Rav's explanation of making birkhos hamitzvos on minhagim is
where the minhag has a cheftzah shel mitzvah. (Again: meaning one is
performing the same act with the same object, but not in the context of
chiyuv.) The link from act to berakhah is therefore not that the act is
itself a mitzvah, but one close enough to trigger making a berakhah
thanking G-d for getting the mitzvah we are imitating.

That kind of sevara would also apply to an einah metzuvah ve'osah.

So I would say they are connected, but by a "leshitaso".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
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