[Avodah] anarchy/libertarianism

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 8:59am EST, R Zev Sero wrote:
: An anarchy would still have courts, deriving their authority either
: from the mutual consent of the parties, or from the delegated right of a
: victim to self-defense. EY had courts long before it had a government.
: "Biymei shfot hashoftim."

The question is at what point does a network of courts qualify as a
government. In halakhah, batei din receive most of their authority from
the Sanhedrin, such as dinei nefashos. The Sanhedrin is a descendent
of the 70 zeqeinim, and all of that rests atop the network of sarim of
parashas Yisro.

And would your model assign powers to beis din when the violation is
bein adam laMaqom?

But I must say, this is perhaps the first time I heard the days of "ein
melekh beYisrael, ish hayashar be'einav ya'aseh" interpreted leshevach.
But I guess there is little room for another interpretation for someone
with anarchist or libertarian (for some definitions of "libertarian")
leanings.

: T613K at aol.com wrote:
: >Being an anarchist would not be compatible with what the Torah seems to 
: >consider the primary purpose of government -- maintaining order.  It 
: >says in Pirkei Avos, "Pray for the welfare of the government, because 
: >without it, people would swallow each other alive."

RZS continues:
: That is a question of metzius; just because R Chanina Sgan Hakohanim
: believed it doesn't mean it's true.  Anarchists believe that it isn't
: true.  Also, Pirkei Avos is "milsa dachasidusa", not halacha.

RCShK, everyone between him and Rebbe, and Rebbe was convinced enough
of its value to record it. Personally, if my beliefs about human nature
contradicted that of a mishnah, I would engage in serious introspection
before dismissing the mishnah.

But your last sentence is more problematic. If something is being
portrayed as part of the messianic ideal, would it not run along
chasidusa, not merely the mutar?

I also question whether Avos actually isn't halakhah. There are halakhos
requiring pursuing lower-case-c chassidus. All the other mishnayos
are dinim; just because these are ideals you are to absorb and embody
rather than measurable actions, are we to assume there is no *chiyuv*
to absorb and embody them?


On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:51pm EST, R David Riceman wrote:
: T613K at aol.com wrote:
:> However, it is not, strictly speaking, assur to be stupid.

: See PHM Hagigah 2:1 s.v. "kol shelo has al k'vod kono". According to
: the Rambam it depends on why you're stupid.

The Rambam there is speaking about ignorance, not stupidity, and not even
basic ignorance; rather, someone who doesn't try to understand HQBH and
His Ways (including shelavei hamada'im) to the best of their ability.

In general, the Rambam places yedi'ah on a pedestal much higher than most
of us would. If you don't think that a philosopher is one step below a
navi, then I don't know if you can invoke further implications of that
hashkafah to prove your point.

I think most of us today put a person's ehrlachkeit and deveiqus on a
more central pedestal than intellectual comprehension.



AishDas's [borrowed] motto, which is just my own understanding of Dr
Nathan Birnbaum's motto for haOlim, is "Daas Rachamim Tif'eres". (See
RYGB's JO (?} article at <http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/birnbaum.htm>.)
Daas in this context is being used in a very different way than the
Rambam's philosophical understanding of what Hashem isn't. To DNB, daas is
knowing G-d, not knowing /about/ G-d, that which includes hislahavus and
hachna'ah. I get a sense of using da'as in a way that one can understand
how it also includes "vehaadam yada es Chava ishto..."

>From a 1927 address to the Agudah's Central Committee:
    [Organized Orthodoxy] is obliged to come together and create
    societal tools that will teach: 1. How to deepen our awareness of
    Hashem out of love for Him [Da'as]. 2. How to dedicate ourselves to
    love our fellow human beings [Rachamim]. 3. How to pursue modesty
    [hatznei'a leches] as a manifestation of the glory of our Hashem
    [Tiferes]...
    We must admit that cold intellectualism has penetrated our
    relationship with Hashem. Following through with that metaphor,
    Ha'Olim cannot remain at ease with this frigidity. They must toil
    until within their societies, within each of their groupings and
    within each of their members there arise divine hislahavus and inner
    spiritual feeling.

BTW, he then makes basic knowledge of gemara and machashavah preconditions
for joining haOlim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
micha at aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous