[Avodah] Dishwashers 1

[rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com]

RRW:
> If Bedi'eved would 
> equal lechathcila then using dishwashers with meatand milk at the same
> time would be OK according to many. BUT AFAIK, it's not OK to do --
> except that b'diavad we may not have to trash the dishes."

martin brody:
> Why is it not OK to do L'Chatchila as long as one uses soap?SA YD 
> 95:4. R.YO ( and others) agrees

This will take me about 3 posts to address so here goes part 1

Background:
We have a presumption that Pogeim is ONLY a bedi'avad Not a lechatchilah.

I searched my new TuShA and I found little beyond the Shach 21 (Baeir
hetev 18)

I looked at my Badei Hashulchan and he lays this out very. Despite my
highlights I don't recall what I had already learned before

But this is a certainty:
Mechabeir 95:4
"Yeira'eh li" this is a bittuy for a hiddush w/o meqoros - EG see Rambam
MT in many places.

SA continues:
"Im nasnu afar bemayim chamin b'yoreh kodem shehinichu hakdeiros
... Muttar"

Quick point Badei 86 shows this as "a" bedi'avad case. IOW there is no
heter to place the eifer their lechatchilah

The tremendous hiddush of SA is that post facto eifer we may now wash
ab initio! This hiddush is imho radical and I will BEH review the Badei
in full [see a limmud z'chus below]

Lulei mistefina, I would say the mechabeir was applying his b'di'avad
too early on the time line and should have allowed this ONLY after the
dishes were already in that yore and not before.

It would be a really radical hiddush to eliminate any b'dia'avad
altogether and place the eifer there lechtchilah! This is mamash the
case of dishwasher [w/o yet addressing the mechanics]

It is also obvious from RMF/IM that mixing dishes together simultaneously
is a no-no

Limmud z'chus Hypothesis for mechabeir:

1 he is combining pogeim with another b'di'avad viz. Nat bar Nat. So
maybe that is why he feels free to move up the lechatchila earlier...

2 I'm guessing that since this is dishwater and not edibles,
SA's threshold is more liberal. [This is not so simple because
the mechabeir mentions shoman davuq bahem and bishul is a potential
d'oraisso here even if it is lo miskavein and even if one is throwing
out the water.] Nevertheless, my gut tells me that the SA is meiqil here
because it is only about dishes and not about food we are about to eat.

BEH I will review the badei inside and follow up. Part 2

I have not seen ROY's Teshuva inside. Does he address the SA's use of
"she'im nasnu"?

Also note Rabbi Forst is machmir on this. See Badei 85. The concern is
that real milk and meat may cook together prior to the threshold of the
dishwasher soap being pogeim.

[Unless one already pre-rinses the dishes with soap prior to placing
them in the dishwasher.]

FWIW:
I once had a case come to me where:
2 young Israeli babysitters mixed milk + meat dishes in the same cycle
and my LOR was mattir bedi'avad bli piqpuq.

GS
RRW
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