[Avodah] yishmael v. the mitzri???

[Harvey Benton]

[I got back to moderation to find a long exchange on the queue. I
compressed the full contents into this single post, so as to keep the
clutter to a minimum. The participants (so far) as R's Harvey Benton and
Zev Sero. -mi]

RHB:
in this week's parsha, Rashi tells us that Hashem judged Yishmael as he
was (then), not looking into his future or the future of his descendants.

However we know that by the episode of Moshe we do know that Moshe
looked forward to see if the Mitzri would have any worthy descendants,
(he saw none, and then killed the Mitzri)......
Why the difference between the two cases??

RSZ:
It's obvious.  The mitzri then was not innocent, he was guilty!

RHB:
your answer doesn't address the question of looking forward (vs. the
yishmael case). if the mitzri was guilty, then just plain kill him
(assuming he was worthy of death), and not look forward....

RSZ:
And lose those future tzadikim?!  How could he do that?

RHB:
1. are you saying that the ideal paradigm of killing/not killing
someone who is guilty is to look to the future to see if any tzadikim
would emerge?

2. (imo) that is not any way to run a legitimate judicial system

3. assuming other people could thus see into the future, like moshe
rabeinu; say like the arizal, or members of the sanhedrin (past or
future), or other gedolim/neviim, do you suggest that if they were on
a beis din/sanhedrin judging a case, they should vote for denial of a
death penalty based on such visions???
is there any basis in the halacha or gemmara for such actions???

RSZ:
Moshe was not a beis din!  He was a private person, with the opportunity
to kill this mitzri, and was deciding whether to do so.  If there had
been tzadikim destined to come from from him, how could Moshe prevent
them from being born?! 

RHB:
1. if hashem want's someone to be born, then he/she will be born (harbe
shluchei l'makom)....I don't think it is the job of a tzadik like moshe
(or a beis din judging the matter or anyone else) to delve into what
might/might not occur when it will interfere with the case or matter
at hand.

2. Why didn't Moshe learn from the example of Yishmael? and judge the
person as he was then, and NOT look into the future???