[Avodah] lulav on shabbat

[Eli Turkel]

> However, this is exactly the later takanah when there was no longer a
> safek that Jews outside EY do keep 2 days. So they did institute a
> "kum aseh" when they wanted to.

That wasn't an order to start doing something, it was an order not to
stop something they were already doing.  >>

I have two difficulties with Zev's interesting answer.
Shortcut:
EraI = time when 2 days was a safek
EraII = time after the gezerah to keep 2 days in Beitzah

1. The groups keeping 2 days in eraI and eraII are not necessarily the same.
In eraI it depended on where the messengers actually reached. In fact
there could be a
difference between Tishre and Nisan because the messengers didnt
travel on Yom Kippur.
In eraII it depends only ony on the boundaries of EY. Thus someone living across
the Jordan from Jericho keeps 2 days though it is a short ride to Jerusalem.
According to many poskim one keeps 2 days in Eilat since it is ouside
halachic EY
even though it is not that far away.
(not according to Rambam even today it depends on where the messengers
used to reach
however we dont pasken like this Rambam although the story goes that
CI and the Griz kept 2nd
day lechumra)

Similarly in EraI a Babylonian visiting Jerusalem kept 1 day while in
EraII he would keep
2 days (not like Yavetz)

2. I am having difficulty accepting that telling one to make kiddush
like he did last year
is a "shev va-al taaseh" . Even though it is a continuation the rabbis
are telling the
people to go ahead and observe a second day yomtov even though now there is
a fixed calendar. I would still consider this a "kum va-aseh"

<<Micha asks
When was "lo ad"u Rosh" instituted? Is it possible that the calendar
was being modified during the third generation of amora'im?>>

It is obvious that it wasn't done at the same time. In fact from the
sugya it is clear
that not having Rosh Hashana on wednesday so Hoshana Rabbah wouldn't
be on shabbat is a much later gezerah

Reminds me of additional question. Why were Chazal so worried about
missing hoshanot
and they weren't concerned about losing shofar when RH fell on shabbat
especially in
eras where there was only 1 day RH and similarly for lulav.
The answer that occurs to me is that to avoid RH on shabbat it would
require that
RH cant fall out on a friday, shabbat or sunday which is demanding too much,
ie if it should fall out on friday it would require a 3 day change


<<Ravin wasn't arguing with Bar Hedya, he was giving a later snapshot
of the changing of the rules then in progress.>>

However, its going in the wrong direction. Bar Hedya says Hoshana Rabbah does
not fall on shabbat while the later Ravin says it does.
I dont have dates but the sugya reads that Bar Hedya first gave
evidence but then came Ravin and
al those who accompanied him
Since today it cant fall come on shabbat it would be several flip-flops from
yes to no to yes to no

chag sameach

-- 
Eli Turkel