[Avodah] lulav on shabbat

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 9:31pm IST, R Eli Turkel wrote:
: 1. How can ther be a makhloket between Bar Hedya and Ravin whether Hoshana
: Rabbah actually falls on shabbat - its a factual question. Furthermore
: why rely on these people coming from EY. Even the Babylonians eventually
: found out when RH was and hence Hoshana Rabbah (and in fact Hoshana Rabbah
: on the 21st most communities knew in time). Of course we know that with
: the fixed calendar Hoshana Rabbah cannot fall on shabbat like Bar Hedya.

When was "lo ad"u Rosh" instituted? Is it possible that the calendar
was being modified during the third generation of amora'im?

If so, it would ansert both of RET's questions.

They needed testimony from maaravah, because that's where the calendar
work occurs.

AND, Ravin wasn't arguing with Bar Hedya, he was giving a later snapshot
of the changing of the rules then in progress.

Bar Hedya knew how to be poteir chalomos. Abayei and Rava would go to
him. I couldn't get dates on his life, but Abayei was niftar before Rava,
in 339 CE. Rava was niftar in 350. I also couldn't find dates on Ravin,
but his father was R' Adda, making him Rabbah's brother. Rabbah was niftar
slightly before then, in 330. This means that both Bar Hedya and Ravin
returned from Maaravah with their respective reports some time in the
same generation.

Under Rabbi Yehudah, who led from 300-300 CE -- the time in question,
al pi re'iyah was a formality. Rabbi Yosi, also the same generation,
is the one who told Benei Bavel to stick to their minhag avos.

I would therefore argue that these reports were about a system in flux
as they worked on tightening it.

Rabbi Hillel (330-365 CE) was the one to publish our current rules. This
was during the rule of Constantius y"sh, who made it impossible for the
Sanhedrin to meet regularl. (One year, the Sanhedrin of that era was
forced to add a second Elul as they couldn't meet in time for Adar. This
is historically interesting since the early Babylonians would double
Ellu and only switched to doubling Addu when they switched to a 19 yr
cycle. All of which was probably AFTER their court was stocked with
neviim; how much after depends on how one resolved the 168 year problem
of dating galus Bavel against their records.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
micha at aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
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