[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Chana Luntz]

And addendum to my previous post (RMB, if this reaches you before you send
out the one below, just add this paragraph to the bottom of the previous
post before my signature, as I meant to go on to say this):

But even if, indeed, the existance of abuse is small, if the perception is
that the existance of the abuse is large, then talking on the subject will
be futile to those who believe that the likelihood of abuse is large, until
they can be convinced otherwise.  That is why I also said, in my earlier
post "RMB is hence likely to find, among many (perhaps more often women, but
not always) a knee jerk negative reaction when they see a man lecturing
women of the virtues of tznius or bas melech penima."  Knee jerk reaction is
not necessarily a positive term.  On the other hand, as we know, tochacha is
generally not recommended if it will fall on deaf ears.  If the reason for
the deaf ears is a belief, even if a mistaken belief, that dwelling on such
subjects will lead (at least in the current generation) to domestic abuse -
then surely those who are giving the tochacha needs to at the very least be
cognisant of that fact, and take that into account otherwise the tochecha
will undoubtedly be uneffective.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chana Luntz [mailto:chana at kolsassoon.org.uk] 
> Sent: 06 August 2009 12:15
> To: 'avodah at lists.aishdas.org'
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles
> 
> 
> RAM writes 
> 
> > I totally agree that these concepts are ones which are
> > "extremely open to abuse". But this does not mean that the 
> > concept is inherently wrong or bad, only that it is easily 
> > misused. We need to distinguish betwen proper uses of the 
> > concept, and improper uses of it.
> 
> I agree, and that is why we have now had a thread extending 
> for a number of weeks, in which I have been actively 
> participating, and this is the first time I have raised the 
> issue.  In addition, I clearly stated in my post two caviates 
> "In the interests of fully covering the topic as set out in 
> the heading (ie Tzenius and gender roles), and especially 
> given the discussion on domestic abuse taking place on 
> Areivim," and  "That does not mean that such ideas and 
> concepts should not be discussed - but as part of the 
> grappling that I am asking RMB to do, he probably needs to 
> consider the way that concepts can, and perhaps are 
> (depending on the extent to which anecdotal evidence is to be 
> regarded as real evidence) misused."
> 
> > In the case here, I'd like to focus on RCL's example, in
> > which she used the word "lecturing".
> > 
> > My teachers taught me many things about relationships in
> > general and marriage in particular. One of those lessons was 
> > the importance of focusing on one's OWN obligations and 
> > responsibilities, and not so much (if at all) on the other 
> > person's obligations and responsibilities. In short, for a 
> > husband to "lecture" his wife on "the virtues of tznius or 
> > bas melech penima" is a recipe for disaster.
> > 
> > I note that RCL did not write of a husband lecturing his
> > wife, but of a generic "man lecturing women". These lectures 
> > can come from her father, or from her teachers (or, perhaps 
> > best, from her mother or friends). But when they come from 
> > her husband, I think that is where the abuse begins.
> 
> My reference to a generic "man lecturing women" was wider 
> than that, I'm afraid.  I agree totally with this idea about 
> focussing on one's OWN obligations and responsibilities.  The 
> issue that arises, however, is often the kind of husband who 
> may perhaps have tendencies towards abuse, may well also not 
> always be clever enough to think up these things himself.  
> Nor will he necessarily have the authority to speak them 
> solely by himself. He will seek to source them and buttress 
> from others, particularly authoratative others.  The man 
> lecturing women is, of course RHS and RMB himself.  Because 
> while there is an attempt to argue, in these theses, that 
> these concepts apply to men as well, because of the "but men 
> are commanded", part of it, the message that is very easily 
> taken is fundamentally about men lecturing women.
> 
> And I agree with RMB's example about OCD and the fact that 
> Torah observance itself is open to abuse.
> 
> That is precisely why I said that "he probably needs to 
> consider the way that concepts can, and perhaps are 
> (depending on the extent to which anecdotal evidence is to be 
> regarded as real evidence) misused".  A lot of how serious 
> one considers this depends on how prevalent one thinks 
> domestic abuse is in the frum environment, and how much these 
> ideas are really being used to buttress any such domestic 
> abuse that exists.  That inter alia, involves talking to 
> professionals.  And on the other hand, one has to weigh how 
> fundamental one regards the concepts to Yahadus.  If the 
> existance of abuse is small, and the concept if fundamental, 
> then one is clearly going to take a different view than if 
> the existance of the abuse is large and the concept is 
> arguably not that fundamental at all.


> > Akiva Miller
> 
> Regards
> 
> Chana
>