[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[T613K at aol.com]

Old TK: 
 

>  
> If I had dismissed the *halacha* (women can't be  witnesses in court) on 
the 
>  grounds that the *halacha* was  "incompatible with modern, progressive  
> sensibilities," you might  have a point.  That would be a non-Orthodox 
thing  to 
>  do.  However I did NOT say, "The Chinuch only rejects women as  
witnesses  
> because he lived in 13th century Spain."
>   
> What the Chinuch did here was to speculate as to the *reason* for  the  
> halacha.  IIANM, the Gemara itself does not give a  reason.  The  
/reason/ given 
> by the Chinuch is only his  opinion.  The halacha stands  whether or not 
we 
> understand  the reason behind it.  I accept the halacha  but I do not 
accept  
> the reason he gives. I believe that his understanding  of women's  
> capabilities was colored by his time and place.   

 
 
 
From: Yitzhak Grossman _celejar at gmail.com_ (mailto:celejar at gmail.com) 



>>  "... But RnTK seems to have no problem  with
rejecting Hashkafos of Rishonim that can be attributed to  their
particular cultures."

So I myself acknowledged the distinction  that RnTK makes here, and
that's why I mentioned the institution of the  Maharat, rather than some
blatant revision of Halachah.  Pace RnTK, its  proponents ought to be
perfectly entitled to argue that any post-Talmudic  Hashkafah regarding
women may be disregarded as having been based upon  someone's
"understanding of women's capabilities" which has been "colored by  his
time and place", and as long as they follow Halachah, RnTK ought  to
have no quarrel with them.  <<

>>>>
There is a huge difference between   1. accepting or rejecting a  given 
commentary's hashkafic understanding and
 
 2. changing long-accepted PRACTICE.
 
===
 
 
Let's look for a moment at this sentence:  

>>But RnTK seems to have no problem with
rejecting Hashkafos of  Rishonim that can be attributed to their
particular cultures. <<
 
Spealomg of "rejecting hashkafos of Rishonim" -- has there not been endless 
 discussion, even here on Avodah, over the issue of the Rambam and his  
Aristotelianism?   
 
Have there not been many in the past, and even today, who reject part of  
what the Rambam wrote hashkafically?
 
Do those who reject the Rambam's Aristotelian ideas thereby arrogate to  
themselves the right to change halachic decisions, or even to change any 
custom  or common practice?
 
===
 
 
As for your contention that I "ought to have no quarrel" with the  
proponents of the Maharat, I just don't see where you get that at all.  I  have a 
list of objections to the Maharat idea as long as your arm.  Just a  few:
 
1.  As already stated -- disagreeing with a particular  authority's 
/understanding/ of a given law does not give you the right to change  that law or 
to change any minhag, custom or practice.  
 
2.  The Maharat does not fill any need (pace RMS) that cannot more  than 
adequately be filled by present arrangements.   Any woman who  does not feel 
comfortable asking a rav her shailos can easily find a  knowledgeable woman 
who can answer 90% of the halachic questions that come her  way and who can 
in turn, bring the remaining 10% to a rav.  I myself  answer "shailos" all 
the time, e.g., "Should I have surgery this week?"   (No, postpone it until 
after Tisha B'Av if it can be postponed without  endangering your health.)  
(Actual question.)
 
3.  Not only does it not fill a need, it contributes to the  denigration of 
Orthodoxy, of halacha, of respect for rabbanim, of yiras  Shamayim.  How 
does it do all that?  By saying to the critics of  Orthodoxy, not, "Come and 
study" but "Yes, you're right, the Torah from the day  it was given and until 
today has been disrespectful and discriminatory against  women, but we are 
now going to fix and correct that blatant injustice."
 
4.  The liberal churches and the liberal "Jewish" denominations have  
already discovered that when you eliminate the distinctions between male and  
female roles in religious ritual, the men stay away and the religion becomes a  
female religion.  You can't force the men to come.  It is not in  women's 
interest to have a religion that their men stay away from.  It is a  million 
times worth it to let the men  have the public honor of assigned  roles that 
"only men can do" in order to have the men actually show up  at services.  
Men who show up then become better human beings all around  because of the 
influence of religion in general and the Torah in particular (I  guess I 
should say lehavdil -- I don't mean to imply that Torah is just  another 
religion on an a la carte menu).
 
 
5, 6, 7, etc -- maybe another time.
 
--Toby  Katz
==========



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