[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 05:32:25PM -0400, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: Your (and RJK's)  analysis would put public service, rather than as an
: intrinsic good, as an evil  that is intrinsically in conflict with
: tzeniut - - which is then only mitigated by the good that the
: particular public service brings.   This is the problematic part -
: which has no support in the literature.  vekhol mi sheoskim betzorche
: tzibbur - the only requirement is that it is be'emunah.

And that it be tzorkhei tzibbur, which is a "good that the particular
public service brings".

Is the benefit a Maharat over a Yoetzet bring to the table the public's
or in her opportunity to serve G-d in the way the contemporary world
told her was more valuable? Or the benefit of being at the amud for
Pesuqei Dezimara rather than behind the mechitzah that of the community?

: I would add one thing - that RHS's and your analysis reflect a growing
: trend - the emphasis on the importance of personal perfection rather
: than the needs of the community...

Think of how ironic your description is. If I came in to the conversation
at this point, I would think that you're saying I want to accomodate the
individual women's desire for religiosity, and you're the one trying to
preserve the social structure.

I'm saying there are conflicting values between my privacy and my need
to serve the community. Nothing about choosing one over the other on a
wholesale basis, but a call for case-by-case assessment.

I'm objecting to your choosing one over the other, as though having a
good reason to be in the public eye means that one isn't workiing against
one's own hatznei'ah lekhes. Therefore you are advocating going ahead
with this change without needing to make a real argument that the change
is worth the cost.

All halachic or mussar terms aside, the Maharat who gets a rabbi-like
role leading a shul and its congregation will have a harder time walking
privately with G-d. It's straight psychology, if not the Chinukh's
constant refrain.

I would also argue (as R Dr Haym Soloveitchik did) that the growing trend,
outside various forms of neo-Chassidus (be they Carlebachite or Aish
Kodesh in Woodmere) is toward hyperlegalism and an ignoring of values
or personal development. You appear to be describing a world so overrun
with erev Shabbos Jews, they want to ban melakhah on Friday afternoon.

It's not that public service is detrimental even if sometimes muttar,
it's that it is detrimental in one way even if it can be more constructive
in another. You are casting a mussar argument into halachic terms. I
apologized for doing so, and returned to the hutrah-dechuyah distinction
only to show why it doesn't apply to mussar.

In short, I would argue that the Maharat as an insitution violates
qadeish es atzmekha bema shemutar lakh (cast into lashon neqeivah). It's
not assur by the letter of the law, but it's not stepping back from
something whose middos negatives far outweigh the benefit.

-Micha

PS: As for chareidi bents, I never claimed to be more MO than chareidi.

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
micha at aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
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