[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 04:25:24PM -0400, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: > He doesn't discuss it there, he mentions an application. You're deducing
: > that his one case is the only case. Obviously, RHS wrote wrote the
: > citation in question didn't think he meant it such a limited way, since
: > he used the quote as though it bolstered his point.

: I don't know how RHS reads it.  I can only read pshat.   RYBS is
: talking about the meaning of hatznea lechet - how it applies to public
: figures - and he never says that being a public figure is an intrinsic
: violation of hatznea lechet  - but rather that gdole yisrael who were
: public figures were also makpid on hatznea lechet ..

RHS writes that RYBS says that if someone is in the public eye, he still
must obey hatzneiah leches, and says how. (1) That implies the *men*
in question are expected to observe tzeni'us. (2) It doesn't say it
was RYBS's sole and complete definition of what that is. He gives one
thing that must be done for this reason; not a definition.

: > Also, RYBS writes about retreat and the imitation of tzimtzum frequently
: > enough. (He has a beautiful vort on it, the seneh, and the link between
: > Mosheh's anavah and his nevu'ah. I used it in a speech at my son's bar
: > mitzvah, blogged at
: > <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/01/fire-within-bush.shtml>.)

: yes, tzimzum, anava, all are relevant aspects to the rav's position.

Fine, then you just said that the value RHS calls "tzeni'us" (as I
understood him) IS part of RYBS's worldview. You may be arguing with the
naming, but that really doesn't have lemaaseh impact.

: What he has never said is that being a public person necessarily
: violates those standards - perhaps as a necessary sacrifice, but still
: violates it...

Isn't that logically compelled? If being private is a value, then being
a public person is a violation of that value. And if one is called upon
to do so, one is making a necessary sacrifice. I don't see how you can
accept that postulate and not *deduce* the conclusion, even if RHS didn't
spell it out.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
micha at aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpilei Tohar