[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Arie Folger]

R'nCL wrote:
> But, and I think this is where RAF above is misunderstanding RMS, RMS above
> is talking about being an advocate (lawyer) in the court system (and the
> secular court system at that).  Being a lawyer is a very very different kind
> of situation to being either a litigant or a witness.

Based on RMS' reaction to my post, I don't think I misunderstood him.
He mentioned that women surely aren't barred from court, and I pointed
out that there is/are (a) maamar(ei) 'Hazal that say(s) the opposite.
I did not attempt to analyze whether or not we are presently bound by
those maamarim, or whether they depend on societal norms or whatever;
that exercise I left to him and other participants to the "Tzeni'us
and gender roles" thread, which I enjoy reading without getting
actively involved ;-).

> Let us just think for a moment about what it means to be either a litigant
> or a witness in any court system.  Basically, the aim of the other side is
> to demonstrate that any opponent is, in the case of a monetary case, a liar
> and probably a thief, and if we are talking about more serious cases - rape
> and the like, that those disputing are liars and, in the case of victims,
> possibly sexually immoral as well.
>
> The whole exercise is, has to be, one of public humilation.  Whether that
> humilation is attempted primarily by the lawyer for the other side (as in
> common law jurisdictions) or by the judge, as in more inquistorial systems,
> because there has to be an attempt to get at the truth, probing and
> humiliating questions need to be asked.
<SNIP>
> It is in this framework that the gemora on Shavous 30a discusses the fact
> that women do not generally come to court, even as litigants - preferring to
> send others to represent them (which it would seem halachically they are
> permitted to do) on the basis of of the principle kol kavuda bas melech
> penima.  And it also implies that this is the basis for the exclusion of
> women as witnesses - see eg Tosphos there (although of course this is from
> a pasuk, so no reason need really be given, so even that one cannot say for
> definite).  What this seems to allow is for women, for the most part, to
> avoid cross examination and public humilation in a court setting.

Beautiful hypothesis. However, lacking strong proof, you should keep
in mind that you may or may not be right. Data point: the maamar
'Hazal I quoted from Rashi states melamed she-ein la-isha *reshut*
ledabber bifnei ha-ish.

According to your beautiful theory, the maamar should have taught:
"she-ein ha-isha *tzerikha*" or "*'hayyavet,*" "le-dabber bifnei
ha-ish."

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
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