[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 12:27:33PM -0400, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: This essay reflects a methodological approach of RHS that I have seen in
: other contexts tghat, BMKVT i find problematic - the use of a legitimate
: source, that argues a position that supports his desired conclusion - but
: that the original position cited is in general ignored (or minimized) in
: practice. (eg, in talking about women's tefillot, the Magen Avraham's
: position about women reading kriat hatorah)

If the norm in practice is to do something wrong, is it improper to
note that we're behaving in a non-ideal way? And when discussing MAJOR
changes to how we practice our Judaism (or even not so major), should
we not avoid a path that brings us further from the ideal?

I don't see how your objection holds, presuming one agrees with his
basic notion that there is value for someone of either gender in avoiding
the limelight.

: If something is in practice ignored, it is difficult to make it the basis
: for a wide ranging principe and for a new situation - (we don't care about
: it for us, but you....),especially, as the new situation (public position
: for women), the issue is in general not the kavod and public position for an
: individual (where a lack of zniut can be argued) but the possibility of
: inclusion of a group - a very different issue.

I guess the difference between our posiitons is that you see applying an
ignored principle in a new situation, whereas I see it as instituting a
change that takes us even further from a principle we're already
insufficiently following.

: BTW, in some communities. the exclusion of an entire group is actually a
: very public statement - the opposite of tnziut - and their inclusion is
: therefore an act of zniut...

A violation of whose tzeni'us? The poseiq who is going to answer the
question either way? I don't think an abstract communal "public
statement" really qualifies as the opposite of tzeni'us since it doesn't
thrust anyone into the limelight.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
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