[Avodah] lulav on shabbat

[Eli Turkel]

I am having difficulties with the gemara on lulav on shabbat and would
like some help

Short synopsis of the gemara

Mishna: Succah 42b

If the first of Succot is on shabbat we use the lulav but not if
shabbat is during chol hamoed
If Hoshana Raba is one shabbat we use the aravah but not if shabbat is
another day of succot

Gemara: Why not use the lulav on shabbat - because of the gezerah of
Rabbah that perhaps
some will carry the lulav on shabbat and carry 4 amot in reshut harabim
If so why not prohibit it on the first day if it is shabbat?
Since the first day is from the Torah even outside the bet hamikdash
they didnt prohibit it
If so why is it prohibited outside of Israel?
Because we dont know the exact date (obviously before the fixed
calendar} but in EY
where they know the true date of succot they use the lulav
Conclusion (temporary) in EY the lulav is carried the first day even
on shabbat (43a)

The gemara brings a proof from 2 beraitot one that says they brought
the lulavim to
the bet hamikdash and one says to the bet haknesset. So we see that even later
they used the lulav on shabbat

On 43b the gemara discusses arvavah  with a similar discussion. There
Bar Hedya who
came from EY answered that Hoshana rabbah never comes out on shabbat.
When Ravin came
from EY he said that Hoshana Rabbah does come out on shabbat

On the top pf 44a the gemara (because of some questions) reverses
itself and says that
since outside of EY the don't use the lulav on shabbat so also inside
EY. The gemara
now ansers the contradiction of the beraitot that the one talking
about bet knesset
is while the Temple stood but outside of Jerusalem/bet hamikdash

------------------------------------------------------

Questions:

1. How can ther be a makhloket between Bar Hedya and Ravin whether
Hoshana Rabbah
actually falls on shabbat - its a factual question. Furthermore why
rely on these people coming from
EY. Even the Babylonians eventually found out when RH was and hence
Hoshana Rabbah
(and in fact Hoshana Rabbah on the 21st most communities knew in time).
Of course we know that with the fixed calendar Hoshana Rabbah cannot
fall on shabbat like
Bar Hedya.

2. Tevhnical problem that "lo Titgodedu" doesnt apply to two countries.
see http://www.dafyomi.co.il/sukah/insites/su-dt-044.htm for some answers

3. EY keeps one day yomtov while Bavel keeps 2 days
from the above daf yomi in the name of the Lechem Mishneh
"The Rabanan do not institute an active practice, a "Kum v'Aseh," such
as the requirement
for the Jews in Eretz Yisrael to observe a second day of Yom Tov"
However, this is exactly the later takanah when there was no longer a
safek that Jews outside
EY do keep 2 days. So they did institute a "kum aseh" when they wanted to.

Rabbi Kornfeld answers that for lulav there is both lo totgodedu and
the gezerah of Rabbah
while for 2nd day yomtov there is only lo titgodedu.
Rabbi Kornfeld assumes that there gezera was right after the churban
which is hard to accept
and again the Yerushalmi knows nothing of the gezerah of Rabbah and we
are talking
about the practice in EY

4. How does the gemara change its mind a full blatt later? Again
whether EY used the
lulav on the first day that was a shabbat is a factual question. The
Yerushalmi doesnt
seem to mention any such gezera.

When did this gezera occur? Mefarshim seem to assume at the time of
the destruction of the Temple.
To me it is inconceivable that the Tanaim who were overwhelming from
EY with very few exceptions would
have prohibited lulav in EY because of problems that the Babylonians
had because of safek. As mentioned
there is no hint of this in either tannaitic literature or the Yerushalmi.
We know the fight the sages of EY gave when Chananiah wanted to
perform kiddush hachodesh
in Bavel and they insisted on the priority of EY.
The center of  rabbinic Jewry was in Bavel only in Amoraic times. Even
early Amoraim like
R. Yochanan stressed the superiority of EY and it is unlikely they
would change the custom in EY
for the Babylonians.

For those that use the logic of a "stam" gemara, there is no names
mentioned in this sugya hinting
that in fact it may be a very late gemara perhaps after a fixed
calendar was introduced
As an aside the gemara answered that one beraita was talking about a
bet knesset outside of the Temple.
Some historians deny that batei knesset existed outside of Jerusalem
until after the churban.

----------------------------
In fact some groups are trying to reinstitute lulav in EY this year
when the first day falls aon shabbat.
However, my question is pshat in the gemara and not halacha lemaaseh.

chag sameach

-- 
Eli Turkel