[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[David Riceman]

Micha Berger wrote:
> FWIW, I think the practical implication on men is far greater. Because
> it implies that men, who already occupy leadership positions, are called
> upon to make sure that their leadership is really warranted. Do they
> bring something to the table that others can't or aren't, or is much of
> it a pursuit of kibud?
>   
This is a very weird paragraph.  You started with a definition of tzniut 
which purports to be gender neutral.  You deduce that women should be 
forbidden to have public offices, and that men should do introspection 
before accepting them, and then you conclude that this is harder on men 
than on women.  But the difference which I find glaring is that you let 
individual men determine their own choice, but you make the choice for 
women.

I think this is the heart of the problem, but I'll comment on a couple 
of side issues.

> (You invoked my children, but
> that just demonstrates that you don't have children of that age yourself,
> yet. My daughter came back from sem, and all I can do is give points of
> information, not make decisions.)
>   
It seems to me that you are missing RCL's point.  Surely by the time you 
sent your daughter to seminary she was old enough to marry (I just 
looked it up on the web, which is not necessarily reliable, but in NJ 
she can marry at 17 with parental consent, and at 16 with the consent of 
a judge).  We homeschool, and our only child is a boy, so I don't 
actually know, but surely there are Jewish high schools in NJ which 
encourage children to marry as soon as possible.  Why didn't you send 
your daughter to one of those high schools and then marry her off, 
rather than send her to a school which encourages further education at a 
seminary?
> And yet, we're discussing a societal change. I see only three outcomes
> for the future of American O on this question: either we accept the
> institution of Maharatot, we do not, or we end up two movements.
>   
"Movement" is an ambiguous word; we use it to describe both Hassidus and 
Reform.  I don't see that there would be a huge problem if there were 
some Jews who were shomer mitzvos but ordained women rabbis, even when 
the rest of us didn't.  In the absence of contrary history it should be 
less of a problem than some Jews davening shacharis lechatchila at 10 AM 
even though the rest of us don't.

David Riceman