[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Chana Luntz]

RAM writes 

> I totally agree that these concepts are ones which are 
> "extremely open to abuse". But this does not mean that the 
> concept is inherently wrong or bad, only that it is easily 
> misused. We need to distinguish betwen proper uses of the 
> concept, and improper uses of it.

I agree, and that is why we have now had a thread extending for a number of
weeks, in which I have been actively participating, and this is the first
time I have raised the issue.  In addition, I clearly stated in my post two
caviates "In the interests of fully covering the topic as set out in the
heading (ie Tzenius and gender roles), and especially given the discussion
on domestic abuse taking place on Areivim," and  "That does not mean that
such ideas and concepts should not be discussed - but as part of the
grappling that I am asking RMB to do, he probably needs to consider the way
that concepts can, and perhaps are (depending on the extent to which
anecdotal evidence is to be regarded as real evidence) misused."

> In the case here, I'd like to focus on RCL's example, in 
> which she used the word "lecturing".
> 
> My teachers taught me many things about relationships in 
> general and marriage in particular. One of those lessons was 
> the importance of focusing on one's OWN obligations and 
> responsibilities, and not so much (if at all) on the other 
> person's obligations and responsibilities. In short, for a 
> husband to "lecture" his wife on "the virtues of tznius or 
> bas melech penima" is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> I note that RCL did not write of a husband lecturing his 
> wife, but of a generic "man lecturing women". These lectures 
> can come from her father, or from her teachers (or, perhaps 
> best, from her mother or friends). But when they come from 
> her husband, I think that is where the abuse begins.

My reference to a generic "man lecturing women" was wider than that, I'm
afraid.  I agree totally with this idea about focussing on one's OWN
obligations and responsibilities.  The issue that arises, however, is often
the kind of husband who may perhaps have tendencies towards abuse, may well
also not always be clever enough to think up these things himself.  Nor will
he necessarily have the authority to speak them solely by himself. He will
seek to source them and buttress from others, particularly authoratative
others.  The man lecturing women is, of course RHS and RMB himself.  Because
while there is an attempt to argue, in these theses, that these concepts
apply to men as well, because of the "but men are commanded", part of it,
the message that is very easily taken is fundamentally about men lecturing
women.

And I agree with RMB's example about OCD and the fact that Torah observance
itself is open to abuse.

That is precisely why I said that "he probably needs to consider the way
that concepts can, and perhaps are (depending on the extent to which
anecdotal evidence is to be regarded as real evidence) misused".  A lot of
how serious one considers this depends on how prevalent one thinks domestic
abuse is in the frum environment, and how much these ideas are really being
used to buttress any such domestic abuse that exists.  That inter alia,
involves talking to professionals.  And on the other hand, one has to weigh
how fundamental one regards the concepts to Yahadus.  If the existance of
abuse is small, and the concept if fundamental, then one is clearly going to
take a different view than if the existance of the abuse is large and the
concept is arguably not that fundamental at all.

> Akiva Miller

Regards

Chana