[Avodah] [Areivim] The Shevach Scandal and the Arrested Rabbis

[Mike Miller]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 06:57, it was written on Areivim
> Mike Miller <areivim at mikeage.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 07:56, it was written:
>> > He is a moser; killing him would not
>> > be an avera.  It's unlikely that anyone will actually do so, but he can
>> > never be sure.
>
>> Of course, this is only if you believe that what he did is mesirah.
>> It's entirely possible that causing one to be sent to today's jails
>> (at least American ones, and probably Israeli ones too) does not give
>> one the din of mesirah; before killing anyone, I would recommend
>> making sure that all shittos are covered....
>
> Why would today's prisons be different?   Remember that mesirah applies
> even to property.  If you tell the nochrim where a yisroel is hiding his
> money you're a moser; kol sheken if you tell them enough to lock him up,
> no matter in what luxurious conditions.  (Of course there are cases where
> mesirah is allowed; this is clearly not one of them.)

The issur of mesirah applies to property, but the death sentence for a
moser is m'din rodef. Even the death sentence for a moser on property
is that we're afraid that once the goyim start taking from the Jews,
they will treat his property and his life as hefker, and they will
come back time and again until he's out of money... and then they are
likely to kill him.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to apply this chain of events to the
American legal system.

Of course, it's possible that this is not the way we should pasken,
and any application of a secular legal system, however just and
egalitarian, is forbidden m'din moser.... but I'm not sure if one can
just say "kim li" and start killing.... maybe the moser can fight back
m'din rodef if he holds that his mesirah does not make him chayav
misah.