[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Meir Shinnar]

> RMB



> I'm saying the word means what it literally translates to. As I said
> above in reply to RnCL, I do not see another definition being offered
> that is relevent. Dragging in tzeni'us in terms of ervah aside, we all
> agree (I beliefe) that's not the whole picture -- so what's the other
> piece in yours?
>
I am quite confused and puzzled (and reminded of Humpty Dumpty Linguistics -
a word means what I want it to mean...)).  The word zniut  translates to
privacy. However, it has been used for millenia, and no understood the word
zniut to mean a denigration and a problem with assuming public roles. To
suggest that that is the simple pshat, when no one else has ever understood
it in those terms, is problematic.

There is another definition of zniut and hatznea lechet - which was actually
cited by RMB - namely, RYBS;s discusion of it, as cited by RHS in Nefesh
Harav. In that discussion - the issue is on the importance of a public
personae (he uses his father as an example, but talks about the issue of
biography in general) maintaining their private dimension - one has to
maintain tzniut and hatznea lechet even while being in the public eye -
which seems a very clear statement that being in the public eye does not
intrinsically violate zniut........- being in the public eye or a public
role is not a violation of tzniut, but one has to be careful it doesn't lead
to such a violation.

This is, of course, a very late source for a very ancient term - but it fits
much better with what is normally understood, and does not have all the
problems that RCL (and others) see.  RMB's approach here seems far more
apodictic than usual - but suggesting something is obvious and does not need
a source is a problematic argument. ( I remember in my algebraic number
theory class spending 3 classes tryiing to prove  a statement that the text
said was obvious, and in the end was wrong....)

Again,  does RMB have any source other than RHS that uses tzniut in the
sense that he thinks is so obvious?  How does he understand RYBS?
Meir Shinnar
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