[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Arie Folger]

You have cogently answered all the questions, except why the Sifrei
has this limud that the woman (girl) isn't allowed to speak before the
man. According to the Torah Temimah, this is about the mother of the
accused girl. However, whether according to his interpretation or
yours, meaning, whether the mother or daughter is excluded, either
way, the Sifrei should not have made its statement barring the woman
(girl) from speaking before the "man" (either the husband/father, the
plaintiff turned defendant or the beit din), as that teaching implies
that we generalize from our narrative, WHILE IN OUR NARRATIVE NEITHER
OF THE WOMEN IS A PARTY to the civil proceedings, and the mother is
not even a party to the criminal proceedings.

BTW, if the concern was that a 12 year old girl cannot be expected to
properly defend herself, and so an adult steps in, why necessarily the
father? Why not the mother or an impersonal plural (which would
indicate that if the father is absent or died, beit din appoints a
to'en for her)? Probably because the Sifrei (intentionally?)
disregarded this line of reasoning.

Now, as RMS and you have aptly demonstrated, I have not brought any
biblical proof that bars a woman from making statements in court
before a "man" (see above for his possible identity). Therefore, there
very well may exist ma'hloqot between sugyot, this may be a
non-halakhic statement, either because it is aggadic, an asmakhta
reflective of their societal mores or because we follow a different
tannaitic opinion. By the way, the Ramban you cited totally ignores
that Sifrei, so that we have no idea whether or not he accepts or
rejects that Sifrei, based on any of the rationales mentioned above.

Anyway, I wasn't making any definite halakhic arguments to begin with;
I was only pointing out that there are midrashic statements that may
bar or at least make it less desirable for a woman to even defend
herself in court, when another, male party can do so.

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
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