[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Micha Berger]

The topic arose on Areivim. I brought up a Torah topic there, but since
I didn't say anything I didn't say here before, I didn't think it would
turn into a thread in its own right, and therefore could stay on Areivim.

I was wrong. So, here's what I said on Areivim on this topic so far.

RYLevine raised the example of a woman who teaches Torah in public, and
in the general conversation asked:
: Is causing a stir now equated to not being Tznius? ...

Actually, I think by definition. Tzeni'us is more about avoiding the
spotlight than sexuality.

Someone may have overriding reasons, such as an ability to motivate
people. But taking the podium is to my mind is textbook a violation of
tzeni'us. Whether a woman, a rav giving his Shabbos morning derashah,
or a chazan.

To which R Daniel Israel <dmi1 at hushmail.com> added:
> And given this understanding, the dynamics of women's roles becomes
> completely different. Not that this won't sound like apologetics to
> women who are not happy with the halacha.

> Men also have to be tznius. The difference is that they are chayiv in
> certain mitzvos that require public spotlight. So a man has no choice
> but to get an aliya, or to be a shaliach tzibur, or a Rav (assuming he
> is the community's choice). If men have the attitude, "Wow, look at me
> everyone, I am getting big time kavod," then women who absorb this message
> will feel excluded. However, if men have the attitude (which I admit is
> a challenge to cultivate), "Oy li, that I have to put aside my tznius for
> the sake of the community need, if only I could sit quietly in a corner,"
> then perhaps women will start to appreciate the advantage they have.

Rn Rena added:
}  This is the best written explanation I have seen on the subject. And no, it
} certainly doesn't sound like apologetics. Kol HaKavod.

My A/A border crossing post in reply was:

In fact, that understanding of tzeni'us and why women who seek a greater
role in shul are misguided is one I got from R' Herschel Schachter. We
discussed it on Avodah several times.

Eg, see his essay at
http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2003/rsch_masorah.html

A woman shouldn't want to be chazan. For that matter, a man shouldn't
either, which is why we're supposed to decline the first couple of times
the gabbai asked. In practice, it makes for a miserable gabbai, so I
usually ignore this halakhah. Halevai that were one of my larger chataim.

In any case, the goal of empowerment is often in direct conflict with
the ideal of tzeni'us.

To quote from the above URL:
    Part of our obligation of v'holachto b'drachav, to imitate G-d, i.e.
    to preserve and maintain those divine attributes that were implanted
    within us, requires of us to lead private lives; not to be seeking
    the limelight; not to be loud in speech, in dress, or in action.
    Hakadosh Baruch Hu is described by the Navi Yehsaya as a "kel
    mistater". He hides from man (see Nefesh Harav pg. 281).

    This concept is what is called tsnius; to lead a life of tsin'a -
    as opposed to a life of farhesia (public). Sometimes the Torah
    requires of us to compromise on our tsnius and to do things in a
    public fashion. We need a government; we need kohanim sacrificing
    korbanot in the Beis Hamikdosh; we must have tefilla b'tsibbur. Even
    when we are required to compromise on our middas hatsnius (privacy)
    and enter the public eye, the halacha tells us that som tasim alecha
    melech - melech v'lo malka, that women should always try to maintain
    their privacy. Let the men run the government. Let the men offer the
    korbanot in the Temple. Let the men serve as chazzan for the public
    prayer, and let the men read from the Torah in public. If we simply
    do not have any other choice, we would call upon women to run the
    government and read from the Torah. But if a woman were to run the
    government or read from the Torah, this would indicate that we had
    no choice in the matter, that from all of the men present we were
    unable to get enough of them to take care of these activities. This
    creates a problem of kavod hatzibbur.

    The motivation to allow women to get aliyot is not because we
    don't have enough men to do the job. Some women are looking for
    empowerment. Receiving an aliyah which was traditionally viewed as
    an act of compromising on one's privacy, has been looked upon by
    the amei ha'aretz as an act of empowerment. Pushy individuals try to
    "grab the omud" and "grab maftir" whenever possible. This attitude
    is in outright violation of the entire principle of tsnius. Hakadosh
    Baruch Hu is a Kel Mistater, and always tries to be maalim Himself.
    Why should we even consider giving someone an aliyah for the sake of
    empowering that individual if this attitude is totally contradictory
    to our whole outlook on life?

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 01:17:50PM -0700, Ilana Sober Elzufon wrote:
> So in theory, people should bid large sums of money NOT to be honoured
> with aliyot on Yom Tov?

> You present an ideal in which men reluctantly relinquish their tznius
> to perform public roles - a sacrifice not expected from women. In
> reality, men are generally eager to relinquish their tznius, so it is
> not surprising that women also do not live up to the ideal.

(To which I answered something in incredibly poor, downright Yoda-like,
grammar, so I'm rewriting.)

I would agree that it's "not surprising".

But that doesn't make it right. And certainly not right enough to warrant
changing major facets of our culture to accomodate.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
micha at aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch