[Avodah] Can we force Hashem to do something?

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 08:49:48AM +0200, Marty Bluke wrote:
: The obvious question is, why the distraction? If it wasn't time for
: the geula so don't bring the geula. Why would Hashem be forced to
: answer the tefillos of R' Chiya and his sons? ...

The problem is one of conflicting goals. HQBH wants sunshine and
happiness, a world of bestowed good. But He wants us to have free will
even more.

I see this story as a statement about that conflict. It would place the
motivation of sechar and justice for R' Chiya and his sons ad odds with
fairness for the rest of the world and where they were up to in the
process for ge'ulah.

The irresistable force and the unmovable object -- something had to
give. This interruption was how it gave; neither were violated.

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 02:21:36PM +0000, rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com wrote:
: The entire concept of "Theurgy" is quite controversial....
: FWIW when the malachim comained zo torah v'zo sechara? Re: the 10
: martyrs HKBH Shushed them by threatening tohu vavohu.

Things are a little more complicated WRT mal'akhim, since they
(particularly when up in Shamayim I there is broader agreement) have no
bekhirah. I would say therefore that the medrash is clearly pure allegory,
without intent of literal truth as well.

WRT the creation of "eitz oseh peri" instead of "eitz peri", HQBH's
statement is of the ideal, whereas the mal'akhim's position represents
the compramise necessary within the real. IOW, the mal'akhim express
the results of the conflict of goals -- trees can't taste like their
fruit because for other reasons Hashem made a world where that would
mean they would be eaten to death.

Here, the mal'akhim cry at the violation of one ideal. No one implements
the compromise, so the medrash doesn't need them in that role. Instead,
Hashem explains the need for compromise.

The world is fragmented, thus Hashem's single goal is refracted into
multiple sub-goals. This creates conflict. None can be fully expressed,
since if they all were fully expressed, we would be back at tohu vavohu.
"Mi she'omeir le'olamo 'Dai!'..." is the process of maaseh bereishis,
no?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
micha at aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)