[Avodah] birchat hachama

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 10:50:40PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: I dont think we are disagreeing. By an astromical event I mean the
: length of the (mean) solar year. Certainly nothing special is happening
: in the heavens. In fact I saw one opinion that we dont say shehechiyanu
: precisely because nothing is really happening.

: My point was that early generations seem to have accepted that a return
: to location is happening even though they knew that Shmuel was not
: correct....

1- To re-ask: Where do you get that idea that they "seem to have accepted"
any such thing? As I wrote, I don't think it's possible to kler whether
the rishonim were speaking scientifically rather than mythically,
since that's a distinction we care about far more than they and their
contemporaries did. Remember there was no "science" yet, we're talking
the days of natural philosophy and alchemy. To think they made a point
of thinking scientifically is back-projecting contemporary values.

2- The "location" the sun returns to has no physical meaning. No one
ever believed that Shabbetai was in some special location during the
hours it rules. The planets, sun and move weren't believed to be in some 
physical 7 hour cycle that brought each one to a special place in order
to have its power.

Thus, the "location" was known to be astrology with no physical location
attached, presumably they would same about the point in time as well.
I think this is a very strong argument against believing that the
concept has anything to do with science.


In fact, the LR ties the use of tequfas Shemu'el, of Nissan instead of
the usual Tishrei (usual to most of the rishonim outside of the baalei
Tosafos) and the hourly astrology of kokhavei lekhet together into
a single concept of metaphysical time. Admittedly, the LR saying it
doesn't mean the rishonoim would have.

(The LR takes bereishis 1 literally. So he wouldn't add this question. But
the Moreh as I naively read it, and as RDE quotes the Abarbanel
[Bereishis, question #9] as explaning it
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol16/v16n141.shtml#09>, has the 6 "days"
of creation as causal steps or what was logically prior, not as a sequence
in time. This adds a fourth issue in assuming they were thinking
"scientifically" -- not every rishon believes the sun was actually
created / put in the sky on a Wednesday. And yet no one felt
there was a question to address either.)

So, while one can't catch them discussing physical vs mythic treatments of
the notion of location at the time the sun was made (placed), it's very
hard to explain the total silence about the pragmatics of the timing if
they were thinking in what we today would consider more scientific terms.

And, the "place" in question isn't a spacial location!


: However the fact that the beracha has to said by 3 hours or at least
: noon seems to stress
: some specific event is happening which is not true

Contrary to my error earlier, the event is not at dawn (or noon). It's
actually the night before. The moment that the sun is in its place is
during the rule of Shabbatai, which is at the start of Wed, the evening
before. The berakhah is made when the sun next appears. (Perhaps one
can compare making the berakhah after noon to making the berakhah on
the year's fruit blossoms after Nissan.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
micha at aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964