[Avodah] 10 shevatim

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 10:07:30PM -0400, T613K at aol.com wrote:
: From: Micha Berger _micha at aishdas.org_ (mailto:micha at aishdas.org) 
:> Why does  everyone speak of the 10 lost shevatim?
:> Didn't Malkhus Yehudah include 3  shevatim -- Yehudah, Binyamin and
:> Shim'on -- plus the majority of  sheivet/non-sheivet of Levi? <<

: The claim has been made (I don't know where) that individual  members of all 
: 12 (13) tribes lived in Yehudah and were exiled to Bavel at  the time of 
: Churban Bayis Rishon -- and returned to E'Y at the time of Binyan Bayis Sheni.  
Refugees. Certainly not comparable in number.

...
: Mordechai in the Megilla is identified as being from Shevet Binyamin and  yet 
: he is called "Ish Yehudi" so evidently he lived at the time when tribal  
: identities were becoming blurred and everybody was just being included in
: Shevet Yehudah.

Since he is called Ish Yemini, I don't think they were blurring.

Rather, the word "Yehudi" shifted in meaning from referring to shevet
Yehudah to referring to Malkhus Yehudah and its refugees.

: At any rate, we have two identified tribes remaining today, Yehudah and 
: Levi, which by simple arithmetic suggests that *ten* tribes have been lost. 
: (Unless you want to say that there were really 13 tribes, if you count Menashe
: and Ephraim as two and also count Levi. In which case, 11 tribes are "lost,"
: but most people would count Menashe and Ephraim as one for this purpose.)

I would think that Levi is the non-tribe, since we're talking about
kibbush haaretz, and Levi has no nachalah.

And still, leshitaseikh, since most of Binyamin (as large of a percentage
as Yehudah) are among the Jews, in what sense are they -- or Shim'on
lost? Leshitaseih, we have 4 shevatim with majorities preserved even
through Sancheirev. I started by asking about 3, not counting Levi. You
made the question bigger, not less.

I guess the difference of opinion between us is:
1- Is a sheivet that is among us but unidentified called "lost"
2- Is being called a Jew mean that we think you're from sheivet Yehudah
   rather than Malkhus Yehudah? (Which changes whether non-Leviim 
   are being unspecified, or whether benei Binyamin and Shim'on are being
   mislabeled.)


On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 02:45:32PM +0200, Arie Folger wrote:
: I wonder, whether everyone agrees that the non Jewish child of a Jew, who 
: converted, has absolutely no filial relationship with his father, or whether 
: some authorities would say that while the qedushah of kehunah cannot be 
: transmitted this way, one could maitain his status as a Danite, Reubenite, 
: Simonite, Zebulonite, Jew, Benyaminite etc.

Rashi on Vayiqra 24:10 qwuoters Toras Kohanim that the meqalel spoke in
anger after being told he could not camp with shevet Dan, and then Moshe
confirmed their ruling.

It is also quite pointed that rather than saying the meqalel was from
matei Dan, it says "sheim imo Shelomis bas Divri lematei Dan". Because
he had no sheivet.

So it would seem that even for non-Leviim, people with no patrilineal
line are sheivet-less.

But then, kibush ha'aretz next time around will cover much more land
than the promised nachalos. Plenty of room.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
micha at aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
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