[Avodah] LechemMishneh

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 1:41 PM, <JoshHoff at aol.com> wrote:

>  In a message dated 7/7/2008 11:13:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org writes:
>
> Any sources as to whether 2 pieces of man fell on erev yom tov as well
> as erev shabbat?
> KT
>
>  See Tosafos Beitzah 2b, 'vehaya,' 2 opinions from diff. midrashim ,and
> see Nefesh Chayah from R. Reuven Margolios, Orach Chaim, 529, 3.
>

I have not follwoed this thread, but it is pretty accepted taht lechem
Mishan on YT is a chiyuv from the Ga'onim not the Talmud [Midrash would
usualyl qualify as Ga'onic AIUI]

The raya brura for this is that one of our earliest post Talmudic sources -
the BEHAG - claims that the Sder should have 2 matzso except Friday night.
This is a very strong indication that in his day:


   1. There was no ISSUR of having 3 matzos re: lechem oni
   2. There was not NEED to have lechem Mishna on YT
   3. There WAS a need to have lechem Mishna on Shabbos

Tosafos/Rosh take it for a davar pashut that lechem mishna is need on YT,
too - hence the 3 matzos.

Gra Attacks Rosh as not reading the Gmara properly, but it is clear that the
sugya was not aliba dehilchesa [for the Rosh on this point]. Either the Rosh
held:

   1. Once the Ga'onim required lechem mishan the sugya had to be
   retrofitted to match noramtive Halacha AS PRACTICED  OR
   2. The Rosh [and others} might have realized that the Talmud never
   EXPLICITLY required lechem Mishan on YT, but it was always assumed to be
   there -  albeit IMPLICITLY. This Sugya must have not held it to be
   noramtive, and Behag would have concurred.  But the sense of Shab as awhole
   might have beeen otherwise

#1 implies a lot About Ashkenazi minhag.  One the Ga'onim say you say Baruch
Hashem L'olam at Arbis, you do it anyway - the Talmud notwithstanding.  The
GRA would dissent on this point, too

#2 implies another factor.  That that which is IMPLICT inthe Talmud may have
the force of the Talmud. {jsut like 13 middos has a force of the a
d'oraisso]  So of course the Talmud does not sayexplicitly that lechem
mishan is normative on YT but it has the force of Talmud anyway. The Gra
would still desent because he would require [like the Rambam usualy] more
explicit texts. Ashekanzim often extrapolate

===============================================================
Two Tangents:

   1. Whether the Rambam extrapolate Birchas Ner Shabbs from the Bavli is an
   interesting hypothesis that woud make the Ramba more Tosafos-like and less
   fundamentalistic
   2. The Gra himslef relies upon Masseches Soferim for saying a Bracha on
   Megillos [aside from Esther]. Soferim is sessentially Ga'onic albeit it
   quotes earlier sources. This sort of puts thE GRa on both sides of the
   Talmud vs. Ga'onic issue re: litrugy.



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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