[Avodah] T'uM

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Jul 04, 2008 at 07:12:17PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: Exactly.  Once they know that it's a lost cause they must stop trading.
: But by the same token, *until* they know that, while they still think
: there's a chance they can turn the business around, they must *not*
: stop trading, because that would be unfair to their existing creditors.

Obviously, since Avi the men's clothing storeowner is a stand-in for a
friend of mine, I know details I can't really share without someone on
list or another who might know him (Jewish Geography) figuring out who I
mean. (The person who was about to by the "clothing store" who was left
to their own resources to find out how much debt the business was in is
also a friend.)

Let's just say the shirts M&S didn't get paid for were liquidated,
rather than returned to the manufacturer. Not to pay other debts --
no outstanding debts (to speak of) were paid. It's not exactly what
happened, but the nearest equivalent given the change of industry between
my fictional case and the real one.

So, given that we can't really discussed what happened, how do we
proceed from here? Well, I can continue throwing out "but what ifs",
and we could discuss those. Or, we limit the discussion the issue that
moved the Areivim discussion here. Or both, as two threads.


But just to address what I think is the core philosophical issue in
this post:

RZS, in a number of discussions, took the position that since the parties
involved knew the rules they were playing by, one party has no moral
duty to the other beyond those rules. If workers come to this country
illegally and know they will be paid less than anyone else and given
work they would never do, then it's okay to do so to them. They agreed
to it. (I disagree that they knew what they were getting themselves into,
I believe that the employer in question was so far out of line with norms
that people didn't expect what they got. I also do not think that it's
so easy for them to get out, but that's a different story.)

Or in this case, since doing business with an LLC means consciously
taking on that risk, I as an LLC owner have no duty, not even to another
ben Yisrael, to minimize or cushion that risk.

Such an attitude would basically eliminate the reach of QYTD (Qedoshim
tihyu, ve'asisa haYashar vehaTov, vehalakhta bidrakhav) style mitzvos
from Choshein Mishpat.

In contrast to Rav's pesaq that Rava bar R' Huna had to not only return
the porters' cloaks and pay them even though they were to blame for the
breakage of the barrels they were to carry. RbRH got no hana'ah from
the job and still was expected to pay! Nu, his lifnim mishuras hadin
is going to be on a different madreiga than mine, but still, to say I
have no duties beyond the terms of the agreement (explicit or implied)
is beyond my ken.

...
: I think it must be presumed that, whether or not it was objectively
: reasonable, he was acting in good faith; if he had already concluded
: there was no hope, why would he have continued to put time and effort
: into running it?   Why would he not have closed it a week earlier and
: saved himself the work, not to mention the agmas nefesh?

This is just bad psychology. Few people quit the sinking ship until they
have the next business to go into.

...
: I don't think it matters whether the LLC has a "real" existence under
: halacha.  Secular law must speak of a corporate veil and of piercing it
: (which AFAIK is only ever done in the case of bad faith), because in
: secular law a company really is a separate person...

I think you should read the list of shitos in the article I already
pointed the chevrah to. The notion that the secular contract is simply
an agreement to terms, regardless of whether the sevara behind those
terms involves constructs halakhah lacks, is one possibility.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
micha at aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous