[Avodah] Halachic Texts: More Background

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 12:02:54AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> : But I am persisting on  insisting that he made them optional because the
> : Talmud was STILL new enough to go back to it. After the Rishonim were
> over,
> : that was no longer the case.
>
> Give me a rigorous definition of "new enough" that allows for ther Rambam
> and not the Gra.


I already did!. Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 25 wherein the mechabeir
insisted that to'eh bidvar mishneh included posqim.  {Be'er hagolah creits
this to Rambam, but the term had morphed the Rambam w/o any notation.  Why
not?] And then all the nos'ei keilim chimed in on how that should look [iow
which posqim?]  E.G. Sefer Me'ras einayyim states : Follow Rif UNLESS
Tosafos argues.  [pretty simlar to Rosh and Mordechai btw]

I have not proof that Hatimas Hashulchan Aruch is any less authoritative
than Hatimas Hatalmud, except that meharshal/Bach/Gra etc. resisted.  But
guess what! With 350 nos'ei Keilim [or more} it seems that the VAST
masjority nimnu v'gamru.

Se YD 101 for an example of BY using "nimnu v'gamru"


Also see Heramann Stracks' quote that the "MAIN TASK" for posqim today is to
read the codes and trace them back to the Talmud.  IOW, the Talmud isnow
jsut  background for the p'saq, not the foreground.  I posit this morphed
from the early Rishonim to the end of Rishonim and I can actually quote you
sources to this effect.



>
>
> The Gra argued that he only changed pesaqim that were against halakhah
> (as he understood it) in favor of those that are not.


Guess what? so does every body else. I argue that bachurim not wearing a
Tallis Gadol  is against p'saq, and the Darchei Moshe, Ba'er Heitev, and the
Mishna Brura concur. As well as all Sepharadim and all yekkes.  It is
interesting that the Ga overtunred many Ashkenazic models in favor of
Sephardic alternatives but never pushed for Tallis Gadol - at least AFAIK


> : IOW you could be TRUE to the Rambam in 1205 and say we can still go back
> to
> : Talmud and then in 1564 STILL be True to the Rambmaa and lsay this is no
> : longer a viable option to ignore prominent Posqim
>
> The Gra doesn't ignore prominent poseqim. He ignores the kehillah's
> precedent as to which prominent poseiq to follow. It's an anti-mimetic
> thing,


Or against established precedent. What if the Gra had said that Rabbeinu
Tams's Tefilin was THE correct Tefilllin?   One Sephardic Mekubbal told me
that one MUST wear Rabbeinu Tam's Tefillin on this basis.

To Paraphrase Rabbeinu Tam [on another issue] if you don't accept Halachic
precedent, then why accept the Bavli as authoritative. it is after all the
ultimate statement of precedent. IOW the fact that we take the Bavli as
authoritative is  heim amru.   if they set aside a Bavli here and there - it
is a case of heim amru v'heim amru.

I once silenced a very vocal Talmudic fundmentalist by showing his argumetns
were circular in nature - he even conceded it to my surprise.


> and probably a product of the collapse of the ghetto's culture
> during his times.


Nah.  Gra dies 1797, Napoleon invades Russian Emptire in  1812 The ghettoes
only BEGAN collapsing 15 years after Gra's passing.

Gra knew his pesakkim were private.  He never even tried to popularize
them.  Those who reached back to the GRA to create a new Halachic norm
really wer quite radical to abandon Minhag Avos.

This can be shown by the few communites that resisted  so-called Nusach
Sepharad amongst hassidim [e.g. Wien  oberlanders, etc.} who  claime Minhag
Avos trumped.

Gra told his Talmiddim who made aliya to follow thr local Minhag. they did
not. They instituted the Gra as the norm.  Until about 1960-1970 no
signifcant number of American Misnagdim omitted Tefillin on Hullo Shel
Mo'ed.

What collapses was Minhag Avos in Eastern Europe except for some Litvaks.
As pointed out by Chayei Adam, et. al. Gra was not a big influence in
Lithuanian Minhag for a quite a while after his passing.  But with Nsuach
Hatefillah in chaos, certain communities gave in.

Let's face it, If any one else said about Halachah what the Gra said.[ you
fill in the blanks]
See kaf hachayyim on 3 vs. 2 matzos for an example of what I mean.




Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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