[Avodah] D'rabanan vs. D'oraita

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 03:52:49PM -0400, Glasner, David wrote:
: The point of sakanta hamira is that if you eat poison it may kill you
: because the damage done has an immediate effect. The damage associated
: with issur does not happen immediately but only over time as a result
: of repeated, independent, actions. So there is no danger with allowing
: a person to eat issur that was nullified halakhically in a rov, but the
: physical danger of eating poison is not nullified by rov and therefore
: eating it remains halakhically prohibited despite the rov. Presumably
: any non-physical sakana does not have an immediate catastrophic effect,
: so rov can nullify it. If you can specify a case where the non-physical
: sakana could have an immediate catastrophic effect, then I would assume
: that it is not halakhically nullified by the rov.

To rephrase my fundamental dilemma in a new (?) way. There are three
potential causal connections between halakhah and metaphysical effects
(and not all such connections need to be of the same sort):

1- The chiyuv / issur causes metaphysical effects. Eg: Eating cheilev is
metamteim es haleiv because that's the onesh for violating the issur.
In a case where one eats cheilev beheteir, there is no chait, and thus
no onesh and no timtum.

2- The metaphysical benefit is the reason for the chiyuv / or damage
is the reason for the issur. Halakhah is then like Manufacturer's
Instructions for the Jewish Soul -- someone who doesn't follow the
instructions gets inferior results. HQBH told us not to eat cheilev
because cheilev is spiritually harmful.

Here the D4's sevara helps. The cause of the issur requires an intensity
and long range exposure to cheilev that one wouldn't find by only eating
mi'ut. IOW, a causal connection more akin to smoking and lung cancer
than to touching a stove and getting burned.

I also noticed that in a Hirschian symbolism system, both #1 and #2
are true. The mitzvah is a symbol which communicates a truth. The
metaphysical effect is the inculcation of that truth, and thus caused
by the mitzvah. But also, the truth is what motivates the mitzvah.

Also, since HQBH kevayachol decided on both effect and mitzvah "at once",
in a lemaalah min hazeman way, the difference between these two models
are simply how we choose to model it. Interlocking causality is perfectly
viable. It was all one big creation with one unified reasoning.


But my original dilemma was really more about understanding those who
hold #3 (below) than the D4's enhancements to #2. Understanding #2
better is of help in my own derekh, but that important issue wasn't
where I was looking.

3- Common cause. Something about cheilev is inherently metamteim, and
Hashem happened to also prohibit it. In which case, it's possible to
have things that are metaphysically advantageous or harmful for which
there is no corresponding din.

What I thought was a single opening question / recurring whine is actually
two issues:

A- What would be the meaning of #3? Why would HQBH have people aided or
harmed in ways that aren't part of the usual "nature must be amenable
to some predictability is we are to capable of deciding how to act"
nor part of the moral plane of sechar va'onesh? How does it fit in a
world created by the Shofeit kol ha'aretz?

B- Why would the world as created by the Av haRachamim conform to #3
and not #2? Why wouldn't He include specific instructions about how to
navigate these waters?


Let's take my usual example, and see how the above plays out:

1- Mezuzos don't protect the home, what chazal describe is the protection
gained from mitzvas mezuzah. Someone who checked their mezuzah as required
who happened to kelapei shemaya galya has a pasul mezuzah gets the same
shemirah as someone who happens to have a kosher mezuzah. And there is
no shemirah gained for someone who despite his total nonawareness, just
happens to have a kosher scroll inside his doorframe built in there by
previous owners.

2- Hashem knew that He set up a world such that mezuzos have protective
power, and therefore told the Jewish people to hang them.

Now, what would the D4 say to this? The person could not have a kosher
mezuzah for years. This is unlike kashrus, where the effect of safeiq is
watered down by repetition (the Law of Large Numbers, or as we'd say in
the office, by the "portfolio effect" -- in the aggregate a trader only
needs to be right 51% of the time).

Here, my personal inclinations, FWIW, tend to shift from #2 (effect
motivated the tzivui) to #1 (non/compliance causes effect). I can't see
why HQBH would create a universe in which a scroll has inherent power.
My question A becomes pressing here too. When it comes to issurim,
saying that in some way I can't understand, there is a danger to my
soul that HQBH needed to write into souls and therefore He tells us to
avoid. When it comes to chiyuvim, I have a harder time accepting the
parallel notion. Observing my own inclination, I don't really have a
good explanation for it.

3- Common cause -- mezuzos protect in a distinct way from how the mitzvas
mezuzah protects. This in turn implies qemei'os can work without there
being a mitzvah qemei'ah (#1), or a Desire on Hashem's part to recommend
writing it (#2).

I'm having difficulties with this last stance, not even in terms of
accepting it as part of my derekh, but in understanding it as /a/
derekh. And on that I still need help.


OTOH, returning back to the topic in the subject line... Can a mitzvah
derabbanon have metaphysical impact:

1- Yes, since the impact is a sechar va'onesh thing. Once lo sasur
applies, there will be sechar.

2- Only if they are implementations of Torah ideas to fit post-Torah
events. Eg pirsumei nisah actions of Purim or Chanukah. The details
of tefillah. But otherwise, if there were a motivating metaphysical
impact, HQBH would have made the din Himself. Dinim derabbanan are
therefore primarily logistical advice - gezeiros to protect accidental
violation, takanos to protect us from making bad decisions.

3- How can you even ask about mitzvos having metaphysical impact?
Sechar and impact two different topics!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
micha at aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpilei Tohar