[Avodah] Fish and milk

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 8:09 PM, Zev Sero <zev at sero.name> wrote:

> Richard Wolpoe wrote:
>
>    1. what in the context of the Darchei Moshe forces you to say his
>>      statement is NOT a reference to scribal or printer error?
>>
>
> The original din in the Tur is that fish that was cooked in milk is
> mutar, i.e. that the issur of basar bechalav does not apply to fish.
>
> The BY comments that the Tur here means there's no issur of basar
> bechalav, but not that it's actually permitted lemaaseh, because
> there's another unrelated issur: that of sakanah.  So in practise
> fish and milk is in fact forbidden, but for a completely different
> reason, and thus the Tur's point is valid.
>
> The DM comments "nitchalef lo basar bechalav".
>
> Now it is absolutely impossible that the BY originally wrote, or
> even meant to write, "fish and meat", because if so what's his point?
> The Tur is talking about fish and milk, not fish and meat.  The issur
> (mipnei sakana) on fish and meat doesn't in any way contradict the Tur.
> The BY must have written "milk", and meant "milk".  No later copyist
> introduced this error, if error it is, and nor did the BY's hand slip
> and write a different word than his brain was telling it to write.
> And the DM cannot mean that.  Rather, the DM means that the BY, when
> he wrote this, had actually confused meat and milk, and thought at
> that moment that the issur sakana was on fish and milk, rather than
> fish and meat.
>
>
>   2. There is no mention in any of the Rishonim AFAIK re: davening
>>  arbis late for Shavuos?nevertheless  the Taz mentions it. Why
>>  can't the BY be adding/manufacturing  a new halacah/humra/minhag?
>>
>
> Indeed, those who defend this BY say exactly that.  That the BY was
> referring to a different sakana, besides the one from mixing fish
> and meat.  The Pachad Yitzchak cites medical evidence that there is
> indeed such a sakana, and says this was what the BY had in mind.
>
> There's a slight difficulty with this, because the BY explicitly
> references the siman in OC where he mentions the sakana from mixing
> fish and meat.  In that siman there is no mention of milk.  That's
> why the DM says what he says.  But one could answer that the BY
> didn't mean that the issur is explicitly mentioned in that siman,
> but that a *similar* issur is mentioned there, and *just as* one
> may not mix fish with meat, as said in that siman, so *also* one
> may not mix it with milk.  In modern footnoting convention, one
> might say, the BY would have written "cf" or "re'eh" before the
> siman number, rather than "km"sh".
>
> One may also say that Occam's razor tends toward the DM's answer,
> to ascribe the BY to a mistake rather than invent a new sakana that
> we've never heard of elsewhere.
>
> In practise, most Sefardim seem to follow this BY, at least to some
> extent, while among Ashkenazim AFAIK only some Chasidim do so.  I
> speculate that the Chasidim copied this practise from Sefardim,
> along with many other practises.
>
>
> --
> Zev Sero
>

Yasher Ko'ach. I see your point and I stand corrected

I have generallyl considered this BY fishy because

   1. This pesak does NOT appear anywhere in the shulchan Aruch AFAIK.
   2. The Levush says what you say, that there is no Halachic problem just a
   sakanah problem. Yet this Levush attacked because they have witnessed no ill
   effects of fish and milk. Given hat some poskim attacked the Levush instead
   of the Beis Yosef directly has led me to believe that re: the BY it was not
   clear what he wrote, but the Levush WAS clear.  But according to what you
   are saying, the BY is equally clear.

FWIW this provides an irony since the Levush paskened almost exclusively for
Ashkenazim but some Sephardim follow this p'sak [albeit becuase of the BY]
while Ashkenazim do not follow this Levush [bay and large] and take the
Rema/DM for granted.


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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