[Avodah] Matza

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Jacob Sasson <jsasson at gmail.com> wrote:

> >>The problem? The Mishan/Haggadah with the questions equate year 'round
> teh eating of Hametz uMatza - which presupposes that they are equally valid
> for kevia's S'eduha all year Round. FWI I actually heard this quoted from a
> Sephardic Hacham.
>
> Rabbi Rich Wolpoe wonders why Sephardim say Mezonot on Matza.  The real
> question is why anyone would say hamotzi on matza.
>
> The halacha, as codified by the Shulchan Aruch, proscribes a mezonot for
> "Pat Haba'a Bekisnin".  Three definitions are given for PH"B, one of which
> is a cracker.  In principle, Matza is a cracker and the default rule on PHB
> is that they require a mezonot.  Ashkenazim say hamotzi on Matza only
> because it is normally eaten as a meal.  Thus, matza is an exception to the
> PHB rule but is not lechem in and of itself.  To put it in Brisker terms,
> Matza does not have a "chalos shem pas."
>
> The "problem" of comparing hametz and matza in the mishna/haggada is only a
> problem if you assume that the "matza" referred to is the same cracker like
> matza eaten today.  It was not.  Traditionally, matza was made of unleavened
> dough.  Many sephardim (myself included) still eat this "soft matza" on
> Pesach, which explains the comparison between hametz and matza quite well.
> They are distinguished only by the fact that the matza didn't have time to
> rise.
>
> One of the obligations on Pesach is the eating of the korech "sandwhich."
> Korech means to "fold".  The real questions are how ashkenazim "fold" their
> matza and when the cracker we call matza replaced the original "soft" matza.
>
> Jacob
>
>
> I heard this in the name of one of your family members.

I hear your point, that the original Matzah was softer and that today's
matzah is hard like a cracker. But that does not explain the use of lechem
oni as the reason. Perhaps I heard the WRONG reason for saying mezonos

The Rambam refers to Matzah as a Rekik - meaning Wafer. It does not seem at
least in HIS day to have been soft. AIUI it would seem that MOST of the
Menachos were both hard and matzah. The Lechem Hapanim seems to have been
quite firm and not soft or pliable at all. And this thread is related to the
Lechem hapanim being matza.  If the lechem hapanim were indeed soft, it
would not have stayed in its hmold very well.

The fact that lechem hapanim was both Matza and called Lechem is part of the
proof for this. Now it IS possible that lechem hapanim was firm but still
soft somehow and not a true cracker. I don't know for sure. It certainly was
not flat it was shaped sort of like a "U"

Ashkenazic Cracker Matza is based upon a Humra to make it as dry as possible
and as thoroughly baked as possible. I think this Humra makes sense because
today's matza is very unlikely to have the concern of unbaked flour that
plagued  Matzos of  earlier generations.  AISI this humra leads us safely to
being lenient on  matzo shruya because the possibility of unbaked flour in
our hard crackers is indeed minimal.

At any rate, Pas Habba bekisnin IS hamotzi any time one is kovei'a a se'udah
upon it. Thus, crackers WOULD be hamotzi when used  for kevi'as se'udah
anyway. So the only question would be upon the issue ofsnacking on matzah.

Tangentially, AISI, any time one is kovei'a a s'udah on Shabbas would
convert a pas habba bekisnin into Hamotzi. That is why matzah Ashira is
hamozi for any se'udah on Shabbos even though we might say mezonos on it
during the week as a snack. This is a form of Achshevei. the requirement of
Kevi'as se'udah on Shabbos PROMOTES the matzah ashira from pas habba
beksinin mezonos to hamozi merely by the context of a Sahbbos Se'udah.

The only problem I have is having crackers at our s-called "kiddushes" on
Shsbbos after services.  This actually cannot work in my system [i.e I would
required hamotzi] and I am told the GRA insisted on hamotzi davka after
Kiddush.  This WAS true of my old shul in the Heights that USED to have
davka hamotzi for kiddush on Shabbos and Yom Tov in the "good old days".


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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