[Avodah] letter of RSRH

[Yitzhak Grossman]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:16:04 EDT
T613K at aol.com wrote:

[snip]

> Had he been alive when Zionism really got under way, he would have followed  
> the majority of gedolim and majority da'as Torah, and would not have been a  
> Zionist. (I take it for granted that everyone knows the difference between  

How do you know?

> political Zionism and ahavas ha'aretz.)   He would however have  cooperated with 
> the institutions of government, once a medinah was a fait  accompli.  He would 

How do you know?

> NOT have agreed with the Satmar Rebbe or the  Lubavitcher Rebbe that it is 
> preferable, when given a choice, for Jews to davka  remain in chutz la'aretz 
> until Moshiach comes.  OTOH where there is already  an established kehilla in 

How do you know?

> chutz la'aratz, like the Yekke community in America,  he would not counsel them 
> to dissolve their kehilla and reconstitute it in  E'Y. 

How do you know?

I see that RMB has made my monotonously repeated point somewhat more
gracefully, but I still feel the need to reiterate it, distilled to the
stark essence of the question.  RnTK, if you are going to
authoritatively assert Rav Hirsch's (or anyone else's) positions, you
need to provide sources.

[snip]

> Hirsch's descendants and followers in Eretz Yisrael mostly identified with  
> the PAI party (Poalei Agudas Yisrael) in the early decades of the Medinah.   
> That party now seems to be defunct.  Hirschians in  E'Y were /not/ Satmar and 
> were /not/ Neturei Karta.  They even  built a kibbutz, Kibbutz Chofetz Chaim.

>From the little that I know of PAI, they did not always follow "the
majority of Gedolim and majority da'as Torah".  From the current issue
of the JO (Apr 2008, sidebar to p. 16):

<Quote>

At one point [during the plenary session of the 1947 Marienbad World
Agudah Conference], Rabbi [Eliyahu Meir] Bloch stood up, and, pointing
to Reb Blau [the leader of the PAI delegation], brought matters to a
head by declaring, in ringing tones, "the question is, are you or are
you not prepared to accept the authority of the Moetzes Gedolei
HaTorah?" ...

Slowly, Reb Blau eased his frame out of his seat and got up to face the
Rosh HaYeshiva.  He then cautiously but firmly worded his reply as
follows: "Yes, we accept the authority of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah -
provided that they understand us."

If it was understanding that Reb Blau was seeking, then he certainly
achieved it.  For at that moment, everyone in the hall, indeed,
comprehended that his diplomatically phrased reply was, in fact,
tantamount to a refusal on the part of the Poalei Agudah to be governed
absolutely by the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah. ...

</Quote>

EJ (first edition, entry on PAI), however, implies that the formal
showdown only occurred in 1960:

<Quote>

... it did not disassociate itself completely from Agudat Israel; in
particular, it continued to accept the authority of its Mo'ezet Gedolei
ha-Torah. ...

In 1960, however, P.A.I. contravened a decision of the Mo'ezet Gedolei
ha-Torah by joining the government, and as a result the formal ties
with Agudat Israel finally came to an end.

</Quote>

> --Toby  Katz

Yitzhak
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