[Avodah] (no subject)

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Seth Mandel <sethm37 at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> The Shulhan 'Arukh says in Orah Hayyim §479:1 that one is required to try
> to have a zimmun for the seder.  The R'MO adds that this is so that people
> can read sections in Hallel responsively, and the Mishna B'rurah explains
> that there is no requirement as far as bentching goes, the whole issue is so
> that Hallel can be read responsively at the Seder.  That indeed in the
> source, from the Tur in this siman, quoting a Medrash.  The R'MO considers
> this so important that he allows bringing in someone from the outside who
> has not been at the rest of the Seder.  Nor does the 'Arukh haShulhan
> mention that the general custom is not to do it.
>
> I confess that, although I have been to lots of different places and
> communities, my experience with S'dorim is limited.  Outside of my parents
> (with my zeide Mandel present at some) I have been to s'dorim only in 4
> other places in my life, and I have never seen this responsive reading done,
> outside of by RYBS.  I have also asked someone who is very knowledgeable
> about Hungarian customs, and he confirmed that, as far as he knew, there was
> no custom to read any part of Hallel responsively in Hungary.  Various
> pollaks and litvaks have told me the same.  (RYBS's practices is no proof,
> since it is well known that Briskers had their own ideas about minhogim.)
>
> So: does anyone know of any communities where they practiced responsive
> reading of Hallel during the Seder?  The only one I know of is the
> Teimanim, both the Baladi and Shami, who do responsive reading for the
> entire Hallel, as they do in shul.  But it would be exceedingly strange if
> the only community that followed the M'habber and the R'MO were to be the
> Teimanim, who do not accept the p'sak of the M'habber and the R'MO as
> binding…
>
> Seth Mandel
>

Remo states re: hallel on Rosh Hodesh that if you lack a minyan get at lesat
2 others to respond.  This is becaue there is no hiyyuv to say Halle on Rosh
Hodesh, only a minhag,

OTOH, on the 18/21 occasions mentioned in the braisso YACHID [emphasis mine]
gomer es hahaellel]. it would be unlikely that the Hallel in the evening
Seder is amongst these 18/21

Therefore it would make sense that jsut as Rosh Hodesh, one should havea
miinimum of 2 answering.

Question:  Why is Hallel Hagadol called Hallel Hagadol when it is SHORTER
than Hallel mitzrayim?

Answer: the Hallel in the more limited sense is confined to those versus
that elicit the response "ki l'olam Hasdo" which form a choral response.
Apparently with Hallel in general it morphed into the  Shatz saying the 4
lines in Psalm 118  followed by a response of Hodu Lashem as a complete
verse  reesponse.   THAT  is the ikkar "Hallel"

Simlar all of 118 has a  kind of  antiphonic structure  bolstered by
repeated verses when the verse themselves lack an apaprent aniphony. The
entire chapter can be done responsively in this manner but it seems to have
been limited to the above 4 ki l'olams PLUS the 2x4 ono's.

I would surmise the Rmeo is limitting his requirement for response to those
versus embedded in 118. I cannot speak for the mechabber.

As such this dovetails with a long-awaited post showing that the Rmea is one
of the very few who takes the  temr YACHID gomer es Hahallel ina
philogoically literal sense.  That is to say the only heter for saying
Hallel onRoshHodesh is without a yachid. This is PREFERABLY with a minyan of
10 but besha'as Had'chak any 2 will do.

Sphardim pretend that the term Yachid is not in the BRaisso and so cannot
countenance the possibilty of Hallel on Rosh Hodesh iwth a Brahcah.  But
Remo's read is superiro {I don;t know if it his original read or a n
Ashkenazic legacy]

This manifests in many ways:


   1. Saying Halle betzibbur is a must on Rosh Hodesh, optional on the
   18/21 days
   2. the manifestations of omitting Hallel at a beis avel vary between
   Hanukkah and Rosh Hodesh
   3. The bracha on Hallel on Rosh Hodesh is said  by Shatz ONLY as per
   minhag Habad AND the Aruch hashulchan.

 The remaining diffiuclties
1. I have are why say Hallel at all [even bedillug] on the last 6 days of
Pesach.  At least Rosh Hodesh has a Gmara to it.

2. Plus according to my read of Remo's read - dillug should not be required
on Rosh Hodesh BETZIBBUR!  After all if the restriction of 18/21 of Gomrin
is for YACHID only what's the harm if the Tzibbur says whole Hallel on Rosh
Hodesh?

The best answer I have is that the incident in the Gmara with Rav is in
minor dispute with the Braisso and that the Halachah conflated the 2 cases
as if they were not in conflict. This fits the Sephardic model, that Yachid
is a no-op phrase anyway.  Nevertheless it is Chrystal Clear that Rema
respects the Yachid phrase wrt to Hallel on Rosh Hodesh.

Also see the Tosefta re: saying Hallel betzibbur on Passover eve in shul for
those unable to says for themselves.

==================================================================

bottom line if Hallel  Hagadol is BIGGER due to 26 ki l'olam's then the
critera of responsding is primarily those versus constaining ki lo'loam and
that is the reference point for Rema not necesarily the andicent Teimani
version of mlutiple Hall'lukah's as the refrain


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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