[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[T613K at aol.com]

In Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 107 dated 3/24/2008  "Michael Makovi"  
<mikewinddale at gmail.com>
writes:
 

>>Also, though, I would argue that even according to an pure  austritt
position like RSRH, today's R clergy are not like those of his  day. In
his day, the R clergy KNEW what they were doing, knew they  were
deviating from classical Judaism - there was NO ignorance. But  today's
R/C clergy are as ignorant and misguided as their laity - not in  terms
of textual knowledge, but rather in terms of  weltanschauung.

Now, RSRH would probably still insist that an Orthodox  congregation
cannot belong to an R umbrella organization, if the O's  membership is
lending legitimacy or material assistance to any R  activities, such as
publishing R educational materials or funding HUC - an  in fact, I
cannot imagine most supporting such an O membership of such an  R
organization. But if the organization is doing nonsectarian  activities
that are not inimical to the goals of O, or if the organization  is
dialog exclusively, etc., then I would say that perhaps even  RSRH
would permit working together. His austritt was because O  membership
aided the R in their efforts, and because R was not TsN, but  since
today R certainly is TsN (IMHO), and if the organization is  not
inimical to anything O, then perhaps RSRH would permit.

Rabbi  Moshe Shmuel Glasner in haTzionut b'Ohr haEmuna argues that
austritt is  perfect for when O and R oppose each other, but when they
share a common  goal, austritt is out of place. His example of a common
goal is Zionism  
Mikha'el Makovi





>>>>>
I am certain that RSRH would NOT permit Orthodox participation in a  common 
body with R and C organizations, although he would permit Orthodox  
representatives to run for election to governmental bodies like the  Knesset.  If there 
were some kind of joint rabbinate, say, for conversion,  or even for charitable 
disbursements, involving R, C and O clergy together in  one body, he would 
most certainly forbid it.  If there were a  non-sectarian, secular organization 
in which Jews as individuals acted together  for some purpose -- such as AIPAC 
-- then he would permit individuals to  participate.  But a body like the 
World Jewish Congress would be a  no-no.  
 
The fact that most R/C rabbis today are tinokos shenishbu is completely  
irrelevant to the question of holding joint activities with them.  They are  still 
sinners, even if not intentionally, and what they teach is pure kefirah.  
Furthermore, many or most of them consciously and openly oppose Orthodoxy in  
their teaching and preaching -- they are not neutral.  They may not go to  
Gehenom for what they do -- because of their tinok shenishba status -- but their  
actions are nevertheless objectively evil and anti-Torah, even if their  
intentions are not evil and they are sincere in their beliefs.


--Toby  Katz
=============





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