[Avodah] schechtworthy

[Chana Luntz]

I wrote:

> I personally, as this must make clear, struggle to believe that is 
> what poretz geder is all about.  Bli neder, I will be working a bit 
> less next week, so hopefully I will have time to go back over the SA 
> sources that I found last year and which point to a more local 
> definition of poretz geder (because if you go on the version of Rashi 
> and of Ramban, you seem to be more dealing with divrei Chazal than 
> anything else).   

Well here goes:

1.   Orech Chaim siman 133 si'if 1:  The Shulchan Aruch brings that we
say v'hu rachum in a loud voice and if one does not say it standing he
is over on the takana and is called poretz geder.
 
The Mishna Brura suggests (si'if katan 3) that there are those who say
that it is only poretz geder if he does not say it at all, but if he
does not say it standing it is not called poretz geder.
 
2.  Orech Chaim siman 550 si'if 1:  The Shulchan Aruch states: All are
obligated to fast these four fasts and it is forbidden to be poretz
geder.
 
The Magen Avraham explains: and even though m'dina in a time when there
isn't a sakana one is only obligated to fast on Tisha B'Av since
everyone is accustomed to fast it is forbidden to be poretz geder
 
The Mishna Brura adds that at a time when there are no gezeros of the
ovdei avodah zara, the chachmim left it up to the ratzon of yisroel so
that if the rov of Yisroel agreed that they should not fast on these
four fasts hareishus b'yadehem.  But the poskim have written that now
ratzu v'kiblu alehem klal Yisroel m'dor dor assur l'poretz geder.
 
3.   Orech Chaim siman 551 si'if 11:  Previous si'ifim have discussed
the minhag not to eat meat during the three weeks/nine days and in this
si'if the Shulchan Aruch says Kol me sheochel basar b'mekom shnohagim bo
asur poretz geder. 
 
 
4.	Yoreh Deah siman 39 si'if aleph:  - while it is not necessary to
check in the ordinary case for any of the other treifos except for the
lung it is necessary to check an animal and a wild animal to see if
there are lesions and all who are poretz geder to eat without a bedika
will be bitten by a snake.
 
The Shach there adds on "v'chol poretz geder - mashma d'bedika zu
m'derabanan ..."
 
5.	Yoreh Deah siman 89 si'if 3:  in the Rema:  It is our custom now
to be machmir and not eat cheese after a meat dish like after meat
itself and one should not deviate and be poretz geder.
 
6.	Yoreh Deah siman 115 si'if 2:  The Shulchan Aruch brings the din
that the cheese of a non Jew is assur because they stand it in the skin
of a nevila and even if they stand it in grasses it is assur.  And then
the Rema adds so is the minhag v'ain l'poretz geder im lo b'makom
shnehogo behem heter m'kodmonim
 
 Note again the Shach there explains on this section that even if they
stand it in grasses it is ossur "shekvar gazru al kol gvinot haovdei
cochavim" whether they stand them in grasses or not - ie again the Shach
seems to see it as a matter of gezera.
 
7.	Yoreh Deah siman 196 si'if 13:  The Shuchan Aruch brings that if
a woman has tashmish and then sees [blood] after that and she wants to
start counting from the next day she is to check herself very very
carefully and then wash in warm water to get out all the zera.  And the
Rema there adds and there are those who say that we are not beki'in
today and we do not rely on this and this is how we proceed as behold we
have already made clear that we are accustomed to wait even if there was
no tashimish at all so that there should not be a distinction between
counting and counting and kol sheken in a case like this v'kol she
poretz geder in such matters in a place where the custom is to be
machmir will be bitten by a snake.
 
 
Now the Shach seems rather puzzled by this; and he comments (on the
section v'hachi nahug d'kvar nitvaer) that he doesn't understand what
the connection is between this matter and this because over there there
is no relevance of bekius at all and we are gozer no tashmish for the
case of tashmish ... [there is more on this, but the point I wanted to
bring out here is that again the Shach seems to be connecting all this
with a gezera]


> -Micha

Now this list does really seem to be a bit of a mismash (except for the
commentary of the Shach, who seems, at least to me, to be trying to
bring the useage within the understanding of poretz geder that I brought
from the Rishonim, ie a violation of a takana or gezera of the Chazal).
The Mishna Brura's use of the ratzu v'kiblu aleihem language is
interesting because it rather suggests something closer to the way the
term seems to be being used now, as something that the people have
accepted upon themselves, rather than something imposed by the Chachamim
- but note the emphasis on klal yisroel m'dor dor coupled with this
being something that Chazal specifically left to the will of klal
yisroel.  Deviation from local minhagim, especially when the minhagim
elsewhere are different, nothing is longstanding, and the parameters for
decision making were not necessarily outlined by Chazal would seem to be
several quite dramatic steps away from even the Mishna Brura's
phraseology.

Note also the very interesting interjection from the Mishna Brura
regarding v'hu rachum - why should should the two cases differ?

The particularly interesting cases are the two where there seems to be a
disagreement between the Rema and the Shulchan Aruch (because once we
say that, the universality of klal yisroel m'dor dor has been lost, and
if the Shulchan Aruch did not rule in such a way, it is a bit more
difficult to say that there is a gezera of the chachamim).  For the last
case, the Rema brings in the additional factor that we are not beki'in
today.  Which seems to leave as the most unusual case the not eating of
cheese after a meat dish and not just after meat (or is this another
case of not being biki'in or a form of gezera to deal with ignorance -
where does a meat dish end and meat begin?).

So, as I said originally, there do seem to be some cases which point to
a more local definition of poretz geder, where there is a violation of
minhag rather than a d'rabbanan, but not a huge number.  Note also that
such cases do seem to centre around situations in which people might be
itching to find heterim due to the desire to satisfy pretty basic
impulses - for meat during the nine days, to eat on fast days, for a
limiting of the nida period.  There is also a sense of pretty long
standing historic minhagim - relating to areas that were, even at the
time of Chazal, acknowledged to be governed by minhag (avelus of the
beis hamikdash, waiting after food).

Beard trimming and galoshes don't really seem to me to comfortably fit
within this list, although I agree that the list seems in many ways
pretty random.

Regards

Chana