[Avodah] Ta'am of eating matzah

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 10:46:37PM +0300, Michael Makovi wrote:
:>  So I'm not clear exactly what meaning the words "our calendar" have
:>  without a beis din hagadol defining it.

: I suppose we could say the general method of going by the new moon,
: and then reconciling it with the solar calendar according to a certain
: method....

Well, there is the perfect method...

Would Hashem use dechuyos?

And what about our estimations:
    Would He use the molad, ie the mean time between new moons, or the
    actual moment?
    Would he use the actual equinox or tequfas R' Ada?

But this is off point.

We know Hashem makes the earth spin, and keeps the earth and moon
in their orbits, and thus keeps the calendar in that sense. But I was
arguing that the gap between astronomy and calendar is the Jewish people
sanctifying months.

However, since that post, RMK pointed out that the months of the year
were counted beforehand, in the pesuqim telling us dates of events in the
mabul. Thus, months were assigned to specific years, implying a calendar,
before haChodesh haZeh lachem.

But was this /our/ calendar?

I would say that's a consequence of the machloqes R' Eliezer and R'
Yehosuha as to whether the "chodesh hasheini" of 7:11 was Marcheshvan or
Iyyar. If Marcheshvan (R' Eliezer), then it does not look like Hashem
maintained a predecessor to our calendar. According to R' Yehoshua,
where the first month was already Nissan, perhaps. (See RH 11b-12a)

According to R' Eliezer, definitely not. The chodesh hasheini of
Bereieshis 7:11 was Marcheshvan, not Iyyar. Whatever the calendar was,
it was different in kind to ours.

According to R' Yehoshua, possibly. That seems to be the masqanah of the
gemara, identifying R' Yehoshua's pre-Torah months with how non-Jewish
scholars do it.

Mequbalim tie the whole machloqes to chessed (Nissan) vs din (Tishrei).
Which was the world created under -- olam chessed yibaneh, or bereishis
bara E-lokim (Hashem-as-Dayan)? Similarly the mabul.

I see in the machloqes a tie to how to understand "kol hamatzil nefesh
achas"... R' Yehoshua seems to be implying that we got the original
calendar, Nissan based, as given Adam. We didn't so much get a cvalendar
as become the soul inheritors of the original. Perhaps a portrayal that not
only speaks of the elevation of Avraham, but the reduction of the other
nations from Adam's pedestal through their building Migdal Bavel. And
in that worldview, Adam could be brought as a prooftext for the limited
connection of "nefesh achas mi[Benei] Yisrael".

Ironically, I just turned R' Yehoshua's shitah, which the mequbalim
hold stresses chessed, and made it elitist...

On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 12:03:48AM -0400, R Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: I have a completely different POV on this matter.  Based loosely upon
: archaeology and alleged comments by R. MM Kasher heard from S/A/R High via
: my daughter Chana Yocheved...

: Hypothesis:  the issur of Hametz is rooted in the fact that this was an
: Egyptian delicacy
: hence it's issur for BOTH mizbeyach and for Passover....
:    1. Hebrews in the Land of Canaan ALWAYS ate matzo, Hametz was "alien"
:    2. When HKBH tooks US out of Egypt HE also took EGYPT out of us by
:    forbidding this Egyptian delicacy

But what about the shetei halechem of Shavuos (Vayiqra 23:17)?

A more fundamental question:
When a mitzvah is an os, does it stand on its own, or does HQBH presume
we know the history? And how much history beyond what we're given in the
Torah?

Your proposal would imply that for millennia, non academics got
next-to-nothing out of all the work of bal yeira'eh bal yeimatzei.
I find it hard to believe that a mitzvah ledoros depends on something
from Egyptian culture that is not ledoros and not even mentioned in
the chumash.

I realize this same question applies to a number of the Rambam's
explanations (eg basar bechalav) but I bet I'm not alone among the
chevrah here who those explanations never sat well with.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 22nd day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        3 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
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Fax: (270) 514-1507                 situation for the benefit of others?