[Avodah] Shabur Malka v Caesar

[Zev Sero]

In Shavuot 6b, Rava gives an example of two things that are similar and
yet very different, by comparing Shabur Malka, the king of Persia, to
the Roman Emperor.  When Rav Papa asked him which one is greater, Rava
exclaimed "Have you been hiding in the forests?!" (or as we would put
it, "On what planet have you been living?") In other words, how can you
possibly not know that Rome is a world power?  There's a shiur in being
a batlan.  And he brings a proof from a pasuk in Daniyel, and a memra of
Rabbi Yochanan.

So far this sounds like a call for at least some measure of TIDE.  Rava
expected Rav Papa to be at least worldly enough to know that the Caesar
of Rome is much greater than Shabur Malka.  But his own proof seems to
be not from the newspapers but from a pasuk, and it seems to me that
that proof can't possibly be supported.  After all, neither Daniyel nor
R Yochanan can possibly have meant their words to apply to all of history.
Surely nobody would suggest today that this pasuk proves that Silvio
Berlusconi is a far more powerful person than Mahmoud Ahmedinajad!  So
how did Rava know that the pasuk applied in his own day, and proved that
Caesar was a greater king than Shabur?

Further, when one looks at the actual history of the period, it turns
out that Rav Papa's question is not at all out of order.  The Shabur
Malka of their time was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapur_II, who
fought several wars against Rome, some more successful than others, but
on the whole he more than held his own against the might of Rome, and
the Emperor Julian died fighting his forces.

What's more, just two generations earlier, Shmuel's friend
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapur_I actually captured the Emperor
Valerian and held him captive for the rest of his life!  It stands
to reason that this fact was celebrated and well known in Persia even
in the reign of his great-grandson Shapur II, and any worldly amora
would have known of it.  At the very least Rav Papa might have heard
rumours of such a thing having happened, which would surely justify
his question.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev at sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas