[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

Regarding Tinok Shenishba, R' Daniel Eidensohn wrote:

> The next issue is once they are exposed to Jews or
> Judaism - do they retain their shogeg state or do they
> move closer to meizid - and how much. Or alternatively 
> following Rav Henkin - how much do we moderate the meizid
> status because of their ignorance once they see religious
> Jews?

I do not understand the focus on *seeing* a religious Jew. Why would seeing a religious Jew put a person into the category of "he should've known better than to violate halacha"? Is the concept of Tinok Shenishba some sort of Gezeras Hakasuv (in which case I'll accept whatever parameters the Torah givces for it), or is it some sort of Sevara (in which case I'd like to understand its logic)?

> You seem to saying that until they are truly gedolei Torah
> they can not do any sins deliberately. Which probably means
> that maybe some of the members of this list might be
> capable of deliberately sinning - but surely not most. This
> might be consistent with a mussar approach - but I don't 
> think it fits in with the poskim.

But isn't the opposite extreme equally absurd?

If a person can be a meizid even though he falls short of being a Gadol BaTorah, so too it should be possible be a Tinok Shenishba even though he falls short of being a total ignoramus. IOW: If there are areas of Torah that a person is not yet expert in, and he counts as a meizid despite that, then it follows that there can be areas of Torah which a person *is* slightly acquainted with, and he still counts as a Tinok Shenishba.

Where are the defining limits? I don't know. But do I *need* to know? Let Hashem decide these things.

But apparently, some think that it is important, from a Halacha L'maaseh perspective, to know the difference between whether Ploni is a TsN, or whether he is a meizid:

> Let me just present another teshuva from Rav Ovadiah
> Yosef -
> *Yabiya Omer(E. H. 8:12.2): *The Rambam(Hilchos Mamrim
> 3:1-3): writes: "Anyone who does not acknowledge the
> validity of the Oral Torah is considered a heretic and he
> is killed by man. Furthermore once it is well known that
> he is a denier of the Oral Torah he can be lowered in a 
> pit and not taken out. He is just like the other heretics
> who say that Torah was not from Heaven and the informants
> and the apostates - all of who are  no longer considered
> amongst the Jewish people. And it goes without saying that
> their punishment does not require the testimony of
> witnesses or warning or judges. In fact whover kills one
> of these  is performing a great mitzva andis removing an
> impediment for the Jewish people.* *What are the
> circumstances? It concerns a man who denies the Oral Torah
> in his thoughts and according to words that appeal to him.

Let me begin by admitting that I am nowhere near as accomplished in learning as most of the posters here, and I also admit that Avodah is an explicitly "HIGH-Level Torah Discussion Group" (emphasis mine), meaning that it is permitted to discuss topics which are above the level of the typical person.

Even so, in all my years of learning, I have never heard these concepts other than in Avodah. And so they are very foreign to me, and I need to learn more about them.

I had always thought that the only case where we can kill someone without <<< testimony of witnesses or warning or judges >>> is in the case of a moser (informant), and even there, it is not as an extra-legal punishment, but purely as a defensive measure. I do not understand what is going on here.

We do not seem to be talking about a person who is actively involved in trying to get Jews to abandon Judaism, but merely a person who does not believe in Toah Sheb'al Peh. Can someone PLEASE show me (a) from where we know that being a passive apikores merits the death penalty, and (b) why this death penalty can be administered without a trial in Beis Din?

Akiva Miller
_____________________________________________________________
Click to become a designer and quit your boring job.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/REAK6aAWkmcqB99GAoZe0IkrH8S8RVqww9pN5CgPtImXtGp10kERxI/