[Avodah] Shabbat erev pesach

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

I was going to write this post anyway, under a different subject heading, but as long as R' Michael Makovi has opened the topic for the current year, I'll use the subject he gave it.

R' Michael Makovi wrote:
> Of course, gebrokts can't eat the boiled matzah, but
> ashira and fried ought to be fine.

Not necessarily. Non-gebrokts people tend to be Ashkenazim who would avoid matza ashira on Pesach, and most begin avoiding it when the issur chometz begins. So it is a solution for Friday night and the early morning, but generally not for Shabbos afternoon.

Some non-gebrokts people eat fried matza (avoiding only what's been wet with water), but others avoid it, and for them I suppose the above paragraph would apply.

> Oh, but he added that on Shabbat day, not only can you not
> have ordinary matzah, but also no baked matza-meal products.
> But ashira/boiled/fried matzah is still okay. Anyone know
> of any sources that speak about any of this pilpul b'ochel?

This is a very commonly-quoted view, especially in pamphlets and articles on this topic. But the seforim seem to take a very different view.

This topic was discussed here on Avodah quite extensively seven years ago. New members who want to review it can go to the archives, at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/ and then use the "Subject index section" there to look up these subjects:

Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Ea ters
Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic
Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Eaters
Matzah mehl Rolls on Erev Pesach - Partial Retraction!
Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza
Matzah mehl Rolls on Erev Pesach
matzo mehl rolls

They are really all one thread, not a thread which spun off several sub-topics. So try to read them chronologically, if you can.

The reason I was going to post today is to add a new source which was not available when the original thread was discussed. Namely, the Halichos Shlomo of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Hilchos Pesach, Chapter 8.

At the top of the page, Halacha 4, he writes:

"A cake baked from matzah meal, which was kneaded with oil and honey, and when it was kneaded its turisa d'nahama [appearance of bread] was neevad [lost/destroyed] from it, yesh makom lomar [there is room to say] that it is mutar to eat it on Erev Pesach."

In the middle section, note 6, it says:

"And so, when Erev Pesach falls on Shabbos, just like one can eat for the third meal from ground [k'tusha] matza which was boiled or fried, so too it is possible also to eat from a cake like this. But in such a case, even if it is mostly oil and eggs and sugar, and its minority is flour, it has the halacha of Pas Habaa B'Kisnin, which is not like cooked ground matza, and if one makes a meal of it [ee kava alay seudah], he'll definitely [vadai] be obligated in netilas yadaim, and bless hamotzi and birkas hamazon on it."

There is quite a bit more, such as an explanation that Rama 471:2 and Mishne Brura 471:19 (who seem to forbid matza meal cake on Erev Pesach) do not apply to this situation, because (in RSZA's opinion) the Rama and MB apply only if the mixture still has turisa d'nahama [the appearance of bread]. But if the turisa d'nahama is absent, then it becomes mutar on Erev Pesach.

(This point is confusing to me, because MB 168:60 says than when bread is ground up as fine as flour, it has lost its Toar Lechem. I raised this point during the above-mentioned Avodah discussion in Avodah 7:15, and several posters responded in subsequent issues. I consider it significant that that the MB talks about fine bread crumbs losing the Toar Lechem as part of the grinding process, and RSZA stipulates that the matza meal rolls must have lacked Turisa D'Nahama during the kneading process. It seems to me that these two steps are very similar, and if anyone wants to claim that the already-baked matza meal rolls *do* have turisa d'nahama, it would be irrelevant to the discussion. Thus, I cannot envision the situation which RSZA describes, in which the MB would forbid matza meal rolls on Erev Pesach because they did have turisa d'nahama in the kneading stage.)

The footnotes also explain why the words "there is room to say" were chosen to describe his view on this.

It fills a little more than one page of this sefer. I'll be happy to scan it for whoever wants. (Just tell me what file format you like.) And if enough people ask, maybe I'll translate the rest of it for the chevrah.

Akiva Miller
_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on online degrees and make up to $150K/ year.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/REAK6aAYOxiosktvJw4jgDoxSzKGIgVm7BWMVyVkcQ1qMfytAI8wci/