[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Daniel Eidensohn]

R' Michael Makovi wrote:
>>  So far I have avoided getting involved in this discussion, mostly
>>  because I have agreed with you as compared with RMM that one cannot say
>>  that a tinok shenishba bears no guilt for their actions which violate
>>  the Torah.
>> R' Chana
>>     
>
> Gevalt, is this what we were arguing?? Oy va voy, I misunderstood what
> we were arguing about!
>   
The gemora in Shabbos (68) is dealing with the status of someone who was 
raised totally ignorant of Judaism or Jews - for this there is a 
question of ones or shogeig. We posken shogeig. The next issue is once 
they are exposed to Jews or Judaism - do they retain their shogeg state 
or do they move closer to meizid - and how much. Or alternatively 
following Rav Henkin - how much do we moderate the meizid status because 
of their ignorance once they see religious Jews? You seem to saying that 
until they are truly gedolei Torah they can not do any sins 
deliberately. Which probably means that maybe some of the members of 
this list might be capable of deliberately sinning - but surely not 
most. This might be consistent with a mussar approach - but I don't 
think it fits in with the poskim.

Let me just present another teshuva from Rav Ovadiah Yosef

*Yabiya Omer(E. H. 8:12.2): *The Rambam(Hilchos Mamrim 3:1-3): writes: 
“Anyone who does not acknowledge the validity of the Oral Torah is 
considered a heretic and he is killed by man. Furthermore once it is 
well known that he is a denier of the Oral Torah he can be lowered in a 
pit and not taken out. He is just like the other heretics who say that 
Torah was not from Heaven  and the informants and the apostates – all of 
who are  no longer considered amongst the Jewish people. And it goes  
without saying that their punishment does not require  the testimony of 
witnesses or warning or judges. In fact whover kills one of these  is 
performing a great mitzva andis removing an impediment for the Jewish 
people.* *What are the circumstances? It concerns a man who denies the 
Oral Torah in his thoughts and according to words that appeal to him. He 
follows after his own independent  thought and the dictates of his heart 
and denies the validity of the Oral Torah on  his own  as  did Tadok and 
Baysus and  those who mistakenly followed after him. However in 
contrast, the children of these  mistaken people as well as subsequent 
generations of those who were  convinced to follow these mistaken 
beliefs and were born  amongst  the Karaites who raised them according 
to their religious beliefs – they are like a child who was  captured 
amongst them and raised by them. He  is not motivated to follow in the 
path of doing  mitzvos because he  is like someone being forced against 
his will. And therefore even if he hears afterwards that he is a Jew 
and  he see Jews and their religion – he  is like one who has no free 
will since he was raised in their erroneous ways. Thus are those that we 
mentioned  that  hold to the ways of their fathers the Karaits who 
erred. Therefore it is necessary to cause them to repent and to attract  
them with peaceful words until the have been brought back to the laws of 
the Torah. [They should not be readily killed].” These are the words of 
the Rambam. The Radvaz wrote on his commentary to these words of the 
Rambam, “Nevertheless the Karaites  who exist today – everyday we try to 
persuade them to believe in the Oral Torah in order for them to properly 
repent. Nevetheless they blaspheme and debase the rabbis and therefore 
they can’t be viewed as being forced against their will but rather they 
are genuine rejecters of the Oral Torah. Consequently it is a mitzva to 
lower them in to the pit - if it within our power.” These are the words 
of the Radvaz. The Radvaz said something similar in a teshuva (2:696). 
This that the Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 3:3) wrote that “one should not be 
quick to kill them” is to be understood that if these descendants of the 
Karaites are  warned  not to violate the halacha and yet if they persist 
in their mistaken ways they are to be killed - if it is in our power to 
do so. A similar understanding of the Rambam is found in Ohalei Yaakov 
(#33) where he writes that it is obvious from the language of the Rambam 
“that they are not to be quickly killed” because they might repent. 
Furthermore that the one who kills them is not liable to be executed for 
killing them because otherwise what does it mean “that they are not to 
be quickly killed”?… Obviously they can be killed because they are not 
actually being forced against their will (ones) since they have already 
heard the truth. This  understanding is correct even though the Mizrachi 
(#57) wrote that “they are not to be quickly killed” means that they are 
not to be killed. He concludes that after efforts  have  been  made  to 
convince the descendants of the Karaites to repent they are not to be 
killed since the Rambam has already said that they are comparable to 
children who have been held captive amongst the non‑Jews That  means 
that their transgressions are as if they were forced and thus there is 
no liablity for death at all even if they refuse to repent. These are 
the words of the  Mizrachi. Nevetheless I respectfully disagree with the 
Mizrachi because a careful analysis of the Rambam’s words indicates that 
the Mizrachi’s understanding seems to be incorrect. For example the 
Rambam says that a tinok shenishba is onus (forced against his will) and 
he doesn’t say that he is like one who is forced. However afterwards the 
Rambam writes that even though the descendant of Karaites has heard that 
he is a Jew… he is “like” one who is onus (forced against his will) and 
he doesn’t says that he is actually onus (forced against his will). The 
reason for this distinction is that once  the descendant of Karaites has 
heard that he is Jewish it is not possible that he is absolutely forced 
to continue violating the Torah as he was when he did not know that he 
was a Jew. Nevetheless it is still appropriate to continue being patient 
with him because he might eventually repent. This that the Rambam 
permitted the circumcision of the sons even on Shabbos because that is 
the correct halacha. Even  though they are in fact rashayim (wicked 
people) but the fact is they have not totally left Judaism as  the 
Mizrachi himself acknowledges. You don’t tell a rasha (wicked person) to 
add to his wickedness. So surely concerning a baby who it isn’t known 
what his status and deads will be. Those are the words of the Ohalei 
Yaakov. We find a similar analysis in the Mabit (1:37): “It is  obvious 
that the Karaites  are deliberate sinners and are invalid as witnesses 
according to theTorah. And even their grandchildren whose father have 
led them astray, nevetheless they are considered as if they had been 
warned because they know that they come from Jewish ancestors and are 
contradicting the Oral Torah and deviating from the correct  halacha and 
are arrogantly going against the rabbis of the generation and transgress 
many sins everyday. There can not be any worse deliberate sinners worse 
than them. And this that  the Rambam  says that the tinok  shenishba  
is  considered as  oness (forced against his will)  simply means that 
they are not to be considered  like those heretics which are to be 
killed immediately. Rather there  need to be an attempt to persuade them 
with peaceful words and  they should not be quickly killed since  it is 
possible that they will accept rebuke. However if they don’t accept 
rebuk and they don’t repent they have the same status of heretic as 
their fathers and they can be killed by man immediately. This is what 
the Rambam meant “not to be quick to  kill them.” However in regards to 
giving testimony it is obvious that according to the Torah they are 
invalid witnesses. The Rambam(Hilchos Eidus 11:10) says: Our Sages did 
not need to list informants, heretics and apostates as invalid witnesses 
since they only listed the Jewish sinners. However these people who 
reject and rebel against Judaism are lower than non‑Jews. This can be 
seen from the fact that non‑Jews are not saved from the pit but neither 
are they put into a pit. In contrast these are put into the pit and not 
saved and they have no portion in the World to Come.” The Karaites who 
deny the Oral Torah are included in the category of heretics and thus 
they are invalid as witnesses according to the Torah… The Maharshach 
(#15)…states that one could possibly say that even if we say that the 
Karaites today have the legal status of trangressing against their will 
(ones) since their ancestors educated and raised them with the religious 
beliefs of the Karaites and thus they are tinok shenishba – nevertheless 
they are not valid witnesses. That is because they in fact transgress 
many commandments and are consequently liable to the punishment of kares 
according to our true religion. Even tinok shenishba who continue 
practicising the mistaken religion that they were raised in  - would 
anyone conceive that they could valid witnesses?… We can conclude from 
all of these sources that the majority of poskim rule that the  Karaites 
are invalid witnesses according to the Torah. It would follow from this 
that their marriages are not valid either when done before their 
witnesses. I saw in the Igros Moshe (E.H. 82.11 page 215b) that he cites 
the Rambam (Hilchos Aidus 5:11 and Hilchos Mamrim 3:3) that we have 
already mentioned. Rav Moshe writes “even the children of the Karaites 
and grandchildren who have been misled by their ancestors and there they 
are considered tinok shenishab which is ones (against their will) – that 
is only in regards to law that they are not put in the pit  or saved. 
However in regards to testimony they are definitely invalid. That is 
because as long they are mistaken and don’t observe Judaism properly 
they are no better than a non‑Jew and are invalid to be witnesses. That 
is because once they have seen the righteous and proper Jews and they 
have the opportunity to follow in their ways and they chose to continue 
following in the ways of their wicked ancestors – they are now 
considered deliberately sinning and therefore they are invalid 
witnesses.”  (See also Igros Moshe E.H. 4:32.7 page 76a). Also look at 
Ginas Veradim (O.H. 3:1 page 49b).

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