[Avodah] Apikores?

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 06:50:59PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
:> Opening Shabbos 15a...
:> R' Yitzchaq bar Avdimei says it was to avoid dinei kenasos. This is
:> questioned and clarified -- it was to avoid dinei nefashos. Dinei
:> nefashos includes misas beis din as well as malkos, not just judging
:> retzichah.

: It includes malkos...

So we agree on that side-point. It's not about judging murders, it was
to do away with corporal punishment altogether.

: It's at Avoda Zara 8b, at the bottom of the page.  And it says
: explicitly that it was because there were a lot of murderers and
: they were *not able* to try them...

Interesting, in this gemara the clarification is given a person's name,
R' Nachman bar Yitzchaq. So, the problem is that he says they exiled
themselves in order to eliminate all forms of capital punishment, but
then only explain the motivation for eliminating only a much smaller
subset of punishments -- those of murderers.

In normal gemara phrase structure, would normally mean they couldn't
do it because of the number. Was it a problem of quantity and time,
or a problem of morality? If it were a political problem, the gemara
wouldn't connect it to quantity. There would be some separator; "vegam"
instead of "ve-", or perhaps entirely different phrasing.

So besach hakol, here is how I would translate the gemara in AZ:
    The Sanhedrin went into exile and settled into the shuq. To what
    purpose? ... R' Nachman bar Yitzchaq said: ... So as not do judge
    cases of corporal punishment. For what reason? Since they saw that
    even murderers were increasing and so they couldn't judge them, they
    said it was better to be exiled... so that we wouldn't be obligated...

...
: It wasn't just the Sanhedrin, it was every beit din in the country.
: There were a lot of murderers *everywhere* in EY, and the batei din
: weren't able to try them.  By moving offices, the Sanhedrin removed
: the power of every b"d to sit on dinei nefashot.

I fail to see why this justifies sacrifice of major legislative authority,
the threat of "two Toros in Israel", when the cost is being obligated
to punish but unable to fulfill the obligation.

The political inability to carry out a death sentence doesn't really
give that strong of a motivation for departing. Particularly when you
consider the price paid.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
micha at aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter