[Avodah] status of the Ari & Besht

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Nov 26, 2007 6:28 AM, Eli Turkel <eliturkel at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Does this special status of Ari and Besht apply to halacha or just
> hasgacha?
> The ability of the Ari and Zohar to outweigh SA seems to be a
> machloket of Eidot Ashekenaz
> and eidot Sefard. However, certainly NO ONE outside of chassidic
> circles gives the Besht the
> right to override SA. In fact this was one of the main complaints
> against the early chassidim i
> including zemanei tefillah.
> In recently RMF does not understand the right of chassidim to change
> their nusach tefillah.
>
> To accuse all these poskim of calling people a liar and being a
> dangerous position seems itself to
> be a dangerous position
>
> --
> Eli Turkel
>

Back to my hobby horse.

Since no one has really articulated an objective hierarchy of Halachic
standards one man's Torah is another man's mered.

Tangentially, see yesterday's Daf [ksubos 85] for several examples where the
Halacha morphed after teh Talmud, one by the Gaonim and ratified by the Rif,
and one by the RAMBAM knegged haRif!]in the Art

It's not just the Hasssidm who revised Nusach so did the The Arizal! And
FWIW so did the GRA.
The chiluk with the Gra and the ARI is that AFAIK they did idt ONLY for
yechidei Segulah.  Hasssidim advocatd changes for the masses.  While e.g.
Chayei Adam did not feel obligated to change nusach as per the GRA.

OTOH, cerrtain Hassidim remained loyal to nusach Ashkneaz - viz. Viener and
many Oberlander Hassidim. Those communities that had a firm concept of
Minhag Avos and so were not quick to revise.  But most communities did not
hesitate..

I still would like someone on this list to explain to me the following
Phenomenon:

Given Kallir wrote piyyutim for the Yotzeir
Given Remah [as in Yad Remah not R. M isserles!] - cited by Tur and Ratified
by mehcabeir [O. Ch. 68]] - objects strongly to saying piyytuim at taht time
due to hefsek.
Questions:

   1. How is it that Kallir could not have known the Halachah?
   2. How didt Ashkneazim continue to add piyyutim in the same location
   for generations?
   3. Could they all have been wrong?
   4. And if they were indeed CORRECT - how could the Remah object?
   5. Or was this simply an aongoing Machlokes?
   6. So if Rema Isserles ruled it is OK for Ahsknezim to say them, how
   come this p'sak was revised by OTHER Ashkenazim?

So as we see, who trumps who or which text trumps seems to me to be a very
eclectic enterprise!
Examples:

   1.  How come ashkenazim add Mizmor shir Tehilim 30 which is a Luiranic
   innovation?
   2. How come Ashkenazim say the Shatz' lines in Kedusha as per Ari as
   opposed to the Mechabeir?

In KAJ/Breuer's, loyalty to the original minhag DOES prevail!

   1. Kedusha si said as per SA NOT Ari
   2. No Mizmor 30  [GRA concurs on this one!]
   3. Piyyutim are recited.

thus we see there ARE communities in Ashkenaz that are loyal to its Mesorah
for the most part. And they are virtually all Yekkes and Oberlanders, with a
few Litvaks  thrown in here and there

Yekkes do not dance or clap on Shabbas & YT.   Even re: Simchas Torah it is
only a recent "chiddush/shinuy" [take your pick!] to dance on Simchas Torah.
[Hakafos is older but dancing is new]  Re: Minhag Amsterdam, I am told by a
native that they first had permitted dacning on S.T. but later banned
hakafos because it was both Lurianic and lead to dancing on YT!

While some communities think Clapping on Shabbos is violation of a G'zeira,
others are Omer Muttar. It is really similiar to the issue above.

I once saw a Chabad "Nusach Ari" publication remonstrate that people should
follow their minhag avos and cited a Maharil. I find this ironic since the
swithc to nusach ari itself is a major rejection of the Minhaggim and Nusach
of the Maharil.  Where does one draw the line? is it that once  Group "A"
makes wholesale changes in minhag only THEN it becomes fixed?



Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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