[Avodah] Women's zimun

Sun Nov 11 21:50:36 PST 2007

On Nov 9, 2007 1:51 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Wed, November 7, 2007 10:12 am, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
>
> In short, your opening question is that there is ample proof the
> system isn't algorithmic,

Diclaimer I DO NOT insist pesak is algorithmic. I am on record as saying
otherwise although on this thread i have not taken ANY side whatseover!

> but since you insist it is, you're troubled.
> You then confuse using a weighting system with anarchy.

WADR that is someone else. I think that  if anything I was saying  if one
uses 2 matzos and not 3 you are  guilty of anarchy after the pesak of the
Bet Yosef.   But I did not say that at all either, but that would be CLOSER
to what I did say

>
> And yes, by including aggadic values in the heuristic,

I never said Aggadic values do not count.   There are many minhaggim rooted
in Aggadah.
The requirment to stand for Kiddush Levana is rooted in Aggadah. by
extrapolation: the minhag to stand for Shiras Hayam and by extension 10
Dibros can be demonstrated to come from the same aggdah re: kabbalas p'nei
Shechina.   While the  Rambam, Rema nd Rav objectg to making some passages
"holier" than others etc. the minhag is firmly rooted in an aggedita in the
Gemara - aisi.

>
>
> The concept of halakhah kebasra'i is often cited as the reason why the
> Bavli has more authority than the Y-mi. RRW would take this to mean
> "Bavli trumps Y-mi".

Look the Riof and Ri Migash say this. an dAFAIK so did R. Sa'dyah Gaon. I am
not advocating this position, I am only the messnger don't shoot ME!

> Which then is disproven by how Tosafos treat
> mayim acharonim. And thus, RRW is left with a question.

I am not left with any question about mayyim ahcarhonim
I WOULD ask why are we still makpid on separarting meat and fish since this
is similar to the mayyim ahcaronim issue [viz.  Bavli medicinal
requirements which were specifcally waved by the Ga'onim]

If you hold Basrai "trumps" that is an objective system.  Rema held that
Basrai trumps.   The URL Micha use dshowt that it is a machlokes betwee
nAshk. and Seph. how to interpret basrai.

But the GRA re: 2 matzos rejected basrai and went back to Talmud . Why?

>
> My take: Y-mi pesaqim carry less weight than Bavli, so that if all
> else were equal, Bavli would "win". The weight given this rule in
> Ashkenaz is far far lower than that given in Sepharad.

[see above about  Rif and Ri Migash  & Bavli vs. Yerushalmi]

>
>
> However, you just can't pull out the significance of things willy
> nilly. It's not simply personal opinion. There are textual rules that
> have textual weights,

But whose rules are we playing by

If BY overrules HIS rule to pasken like Rambam/Rif and neverthless paskens
THREE matzos, how can the GRA ignore the BY's exception?

The Kaf hachayyim - No ashkenazi! -  mentions

   1. The Shleha says this is the best way to be yotzei lechal hadi'os
   2. The GRa rules otherwise
   3. he then says but most Acharonim reject the GRA here nayway!

I would GUESS that the aforementioned BY, Sehlah, and Kaf hachayyim were
aware of the Rambam'GRA conern that lechem oni would be compromised and
paskened tht lechem mishnah trumps lecehm oni anyway

For the BY and the Kaf hachayyim it was about the nubmers of poskim not the
better read of the Gmara

I don't know about the Shelah, he obviously felt that you WERE yotzei lechem
oni with 3 anyway - or at least that is the kaf Hachayyim's read of the
Shelah

> there are mimetic histories of how seriously
> various issues have been treated, and there is the desire to actually
> help people become yereim usheleimim.

How does the GRA over-ruling the BY and the Rema  increase shleimus!
Adreabbah imho it can only  create more mistrust in the process.

When AhS said Rashba had beter sevar but went with Rosh/Tur re: al nekkiyus
Yaddayim he was putting the process over his opinion.  WADR the GRA put his
opinoin OVER the process
and sought to repeal the asccepted p'sak of BOTH ashkenaz and Sepharard!

had the GRA said: "You know I think the Rif/RAmbam read is better, but I
edefer to the process of how Hlachah has eveolved"   we would not be having
this thread. Instead he attcks the Rosh'e read of the Sugya as 'wrong"  I
cannot think of a harsher way to say that the process must be flawe3d at
least in this one case!

(Such as chassidim looking for a
> means to allow clapping on Shabbos along to a good hartzig niggun, or
> helping a couple become parents.)

And C's say that a guitar on Shabbos inspires THEM! and since they are not
choshesh for tikkujn Maneh what's the big deal!

How about those who  allow goyyim play instruments on Shbbos to enhance the
service.

See the Tur 338 and 338 regarding hasma'as kol and using insru,ments ON
SHABBOS for Hassan Kallah!   This is caputre din the major seforim Tur, BY,
Darchei Moshe etc.

AISI this systme is totally subjevctive. If Tsoafos says to ignore a Mishnah
it is OK but if a C rabbi says to follow a Tur or a Rambam he is WRONG.
HOW?

FWIW, Neither Rema [339 nor RMF [orach chaim pt. 2 #100] find the heter for
dancing/clapping on the part of Tsoafos as good one.  At Best it comes under
either mutav sheyihyu shoeggeim or an apologetic for a minhag that is
questionable.

>
>
> SheTir'u baTov!
> -micha
>

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071112/765de293/attachment-0002.htm>