[Avodah] women learning Torah

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, November 6, 2007 4:13 pm, R Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: WADR I think people are taking this aggada too literally.

Particularly since it reads like an adaptation of an idea of Plato (or
his from us, or common ancestor, etc...).

>From the Meno:
> MENO:  Yes, Socrates; but what do you mean by saying that we do not
> learn, and that what we call learning is only a process of
> recollection?  Can you teach me how this is?
...
[Geometry problem posed to Meno's slave deleted.]
...
> SOCRATES:  And that is the line which the learned call the diagonal.
> And if this is the proper name, then you, Meno's slave, are prepared
> to affirm that the double space is the square of the diagonal?

> BOY:  Certainly, Socrates.

> SOCRATES:  What do you say of him, Meno?  Were not all these answers
> given out of his own head?

> MENO:  Yes, they were all his own.

> SOCRATES:  And yet, as we were just now saying, he did not know?

> MENO:  True.

> SOCRATES:  But still he had in him those notions of his--had he not?

> MENO:  Yes.

> SOCRATES:  Then he who does not know may still have true notions of
> that which he does not know?

> MENO:  He has.

> SOCRATES:  And at present these notions have just been stirred up in
> him, as in a dream; but if he were frequently asked the same
> questions, in different forms, he would know as well as any one at
> last?

> MENO:  I dare say.

> SOCRATES:  Without any one teaching him he will recover his knowledge
> for himself, if he is only asked questions?

> MENO:  Yes.

> SOCRATES:  And this spontaneous recovery of knowledge in him is
> recollection?

> MENO:  True.

> SOCRATES:  And this knowledge which he now has must he not either
> have acquired or always possessed?

> MENO:  Yes.

> SOCRATES:  But if he always possessed this knowledge he would always
> have known; or if he has acquired the knowledge he could not have
> acquired it in this life, unless he has been taught geometry; for he
> may be made to do the same with all geometry and every other branch
> of knowledge.  Now, has any one ever taught him all this?  You must
> know about him, if, as you say, he was born and bred in your house.

> MENO:  And I am certain that no one ever did teach him.

> SOCRATES:  And yet he has the knowledge?

> MENO:  The fact, Socrates, is undeniable.

> SOCRATES:  But if he did not acquire the knowledge in this life, then
> he must have had and learned it at some other time?

> MENO:  Clearly he must.

> SOCRATES:  Which must have been the time when he was not a man?

> MENO:  Yes.

> SOCRATES:  And if there have been always true thoughts in him, both
> at the time when he was and was not a man, which only need to be
> awakened into knowledge by putting questions to him, his soul must
> have always possessed this knowledge, for he always either was or
> was not a man?

> MENO:  Obviously.

> SOCRATES:  And if the truth of all things always existed in the soul,
> then the soul is immortal.  Wherefore be of good cheer, and try to
> recollect what you do not know, or rather what you do not remember.

And so, Plato has Socrates prove that the real unchanging Platonic
Truths are learned before birth, and "learning is recollection".

Given this context, I think the chiddush isn't that we're prepared
knowing Torah in order to make Torah learning easier. Rather, Chazal's
point is that those Truths aren't limited to geometry or the
rigorously provable, but are/include Torah.

The history of the mashal does not suggest the mal'akh is an ikkar
element.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha at aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv