[Avodah] Kaddish (was: Shabbas he mi lezok)

[Richard Wolpoe]

On 11/4/07, Elazar M. Teitz <remt at juno.com> wrote:
>
>      The following dialogue took place between RRWolpoe and RZSero:
>
> RRW: Kaddish after Aleinu [after shir Hakavod] could use its own thread.
>   The usual structure is
>   Kaddish Yehei Shlamah after Mikra
>   Kaddish Derabbnan after TSBP
>
[snip]
>
> RRW: Aleinu and Shir Hakavod do not fit into any of the above
>
> RZS: They're both followed immediately by a pasuk ("Vehaya Hashem
> lemelech" and "Mi yemalel") precisely for this reason.
>
>      Aleinu does not require the adding of "Vehaya," since it already ends
> with the pasuk "Hashem yimloch l'olam va'ed."  Shir Hakavod is also followed
> by the pasuk "L'cha Hashem hag'dulah," so that "Mi y'mallel" is not needed
> to justify kaddish.  Obviously, then, these p'sukim are said for their
> content, and not for permitting kaddish.
>
>      It would seem that it's the other way around: not that the p'sukim
> are added so that kaddish may be said,


KAJ says neither 3 p'sukkim nor Kaddish after Hir Hakavod! see below!

but rather that kaddish is said because there are p'sukim.


See below re: Al Tirah!

EMT
>
>
AISI the trigger is at least 3 p'esukkim  [or maybe a complete kappitel!]
Illustrations:

   1. Shir Hakavod has 3 2 lecha's and Mi Ymeallel
   2. Aelinu has TWO at the end
   3. BUT al tira has 3!

 Is this a co-incidence that these 3 come after aleinu
Or
is it by design to trigger a kaddish!

Nevertheless, Syrian Sephardim and Frankfort do NOT say kaddish after Aleinu
-  yet Rema requires it anyway.

FWIW Many if not most Amreican Shuls say NO kaddish after shir hakavod and
go to shir shel yom and say Kaddish THEN  [viz. at the end of Musaph]. KAJ
says shir hakavod w/o any kaddish afterwords [and afaik no 3 pesukkim
either!]

And FWIW on Shabbos KAJ [and iirc Nusach Sepharad] say Shir shel Yom after
shacharis w/ a Kaddish yehei shelama afterwards

Clarification: I am NOT saying Ch'vSh that is is WRONG to say Kaddish after
aleinu!  I have done it hundreds if not  thousands of times myself!   Rather
- what I AM saying is to me - based upon a consistent structure - the Syrian
model makes BETTER sense logically.  I.E. kappitel, Kaddish  THEN Aleinu for
each of the 3 Tefillos.







Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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