[Avodah] Religion and Falsifiability

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

R' David Riceman wrote:
> I'm somewhat perturbed by the responses I've been getting ...
> To my surprise no one has claimed that that couldn't possibly
> happen in a well designed survey.  Instead three people have
> responded with apologetics which have left me stunned. ...

> RMB says it would make him question, not the Torah, but how
> we implement it today. ... Shouldn't such a result induce RMB
> to rethink how we implement the Torah so that more people
> "actually" follow it?

Yes, RMB should indeed rethink how we implement the Torah. But he began that project a long time ago. I started to look at the charter of the AishDas Society, but I didn't need to go that far. Right in the center of the home page (http://www.aishdas.org), AishDas is labeled as: "Committed to the advancement of meaningful avodah in the Orthodox Jewish community."

RDR quoted RRW's response, and asked:
> I don't understand the solution: how can a society be perfect
> if it's members lack basic middos?

But no one claims that our society has already reached that perfection. We're still working on it.

RDR quoted RJR's response, and asked:
> If I understand correctly he's suggesting that we are so
> vicious that we need the Torah just to keep us mediocre.
> I find that flabbergasting.

I would interpret it a little differently. Try this: "We are so mediocre that we need the Torah to become good." or "We are good, but we need the Torah to become very good." or "We are very good, and with the Torah we can be great, but we're atill not perfect."

I would like to suggest that we revisit the original question, where RDR asked:
> Suppose, however, that someone asked you for an example of
> evil behavior, and then produced a survey showing that
> observant Jews were evil in that way more than <picture your
> favorite control group here>.  Would that affect you?

Such a survey would not show what you expect it to show. To be valid, it should show that observant Jews are more evil than the other group in *all* sorts of ways. Just because a few observant Jews commit one particular action which *all* members of Group X refrain from - that proves nothing.

But I maintain that even if *all* members of Group X were better than us in *all* sorts of behaviors, the most it would prove is that all members of Group X were better than us in all sorts of behaviors.

I agree that it would strongly suggest that they are more moral people than us, and/or that they have a better chinuch system than us, but there are still many variables to be taken into account. For example: Are they a small and isolated group, where it is easier for the leaders to influence and control them? Or are they spread throughout most of the countries of the world, under all sorts of influences, like we are?

But in NO case would it prove anything about the truth of our religion, or of theirs.

Akiva Miller