[Avodah] Minhag Yisroel and Gra on 2 Matzos vs.3 Matzos

Mon Oct 22 10:57:22 PDT 2007

On 10/19/07, Arie Folger <afolger at aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> On Friday, 19. October 2007 11.25:24 avodah-request at lists.aishdas.orgwrote:
> > I guess I feel RHS is coming across not acknowledging other "kosher"
> > approaches - his way or the highway. Whether he intends to do that, I do
> > not know, I have not verified this with him. I would say that we can
> > quibble with the underlying premise in any given paragraph.
>
> This is common in literature, especially in books like MiPninei HoRav, for
> there, RHS is trying to explain his master, it is not a Shu"t.
>
> BTW, I am fascinated by your abilities to analyze this matter with such
> thoroughness

Thank you

, but fear it will go nowhere.

I guess same can be said for learning kadashim and Taharot w/o a Mikdash.
It's still Torah <g>

Halakhah is not mathematics, and
> posqim are not mechanics. Clearly, the GRA often overturned consensus, and
> it
> doesn't always jibe with what we are used to see. Others do so more
> modestly
> all the time.

AHA!  Story:
When I was in RIETS bm I once said it is clear to [based upon publications,
etc]. that the GRIZ was a bigger Talmid Chochom than his Older Brother R.
Moshe Soloveichik etc.

The answer:
"Just becasue R. Moshe Solo.. was a bigger anav  does not mean he couldn't
learn better than his more famous younger borther!"

The over-arching mussar heskel:
How much Piskei Halachah are accepted from G'dolim due to to their sheer
stature or their FORCE Of PERSONALITY over and above the cogency of their
arguments!

E.G. A member of this list said that I have a igher threshold to prove my
case becasue I am not as learned as so-and-so. I would answer, look at the
issue and do not judge a book by its cover. Gadlus is not infalliblity!
[this is aside from the "midget on the shoulder of giants model". If I can
muster enough sources, my gadlus is irrelevant to the issue at hand, but the
mare'h mekomos count].

Furthermore. RSR Hirsch posits that Moseh Rabbeinu was davka k'vad lashon so
as to PROVE we weer not swept away by a charismatic guru-type, but my the
Word of HKBH Himself.  I would suggest that this has changed. That  BY and
Rema won the day because they generall humbled themselves to earlier sources
[see maggid Meisharim] while today the opposite is often the case.  [ROY,
kaf Hachayim etc might be exceptions since Sephardim still feel the
obligation to prove their cases via siting sources.]

I would tend to believe the following: Halakhah - within bounds - clearly
> develops over time.

Agreed. but how many right-wingers agree to this premise?

>
> Some people are very modest, on account of their less great stature, and
> hence
> will not want to overturn consensus so quickly. Others, like the GRA, are
> so
> great that they are bothered by some deviations that most of us don't
> feel.
> Being as great as they are, they are bold and quick to disregard some
> concensus, and on account of their greatness, that is tolerated.

Not problem R. Eliezer and Tanur achnai.  But esakl did NOT follow R.
Eliezer or R. Meir [for the most part] despite of or even BECAUSE of their
very genius. {Beis Shammai might have even been more learned than Beis
Hillel!}

IOW in Talmudic times the bigger the genius the LESS likely he won any
arguement against consensus  E.G. halacha Ker. Akiva meichaveiro but NOT
machaveirov!

Today the opposite is true.  The most charismatic leaders who come out with
the LEAST consensus seem to be the most popula - at least in some circles.

The GRA is to be praised honestly speaking HIS mind.  I ONLY question his
followers for rejecting normative Halachic consensus in favor of charismatic
geniii.  I think this is a breach of Halachic Tradition.  See  AhSh on Al
nekkiyus Yadyaim re: RAshba vs. Rosh/Tur as an example of what I mean.

> Finally,there are some little people who feel that they can act like the
> GRA did, and
> they overturn consensus, but no one (or almost no one) will listen. The
> process of accepting ideas here is probably similar to the way RMF
> discribed
> his growth into becomming the American posseq par excellence.

I think a LOT of people find it  "attractive" to see a  novel radical view
as a form of shtick.  I know one guy who davka davens Nusach haGRA just to
be "different" or special.   Antoher one follows Nusach haRambam. I humbly
suspect they are  expressing their individuality rather than a
well-researched shita.

Also relevant is the kind of halakhic issue we are talking about. Having two
> matzot instead of three isn't as grave IMHO as blowing shofar on RH
> she'hal
> beShabbat where unwarranted. Hence, you'll find a lot fewer people
> entertaining pasqening like the RIF on shofar, but more about 2 matzot
> like
> the GRA.

FWIW yated ne'eman recroded seveal debates on this Rif and RH matter a few
years ago. Fascinating debate between Traditionalists and Textualists.  And
it is not so simple to completely be mevateil a Mitzvas Asseh d'oraisso
givein

   1. we ARE beki'im in the kevius - and Day 2 could be seen as les than
   it used to be
   2. There is a loophole in Shas exploited by the Rif himself.  and the
   Hinuch says "take your pick" whom to follow.

In conlusion, I do not believe that we can find a single overarching
> principle
> that explains all ma'hloqot in halakhah.

Agreed. My problem is with indiivduals that have no consistency.
IOW I get why the GRA ssaid what he said and I get why the Rema said what he
said
What I do NOT get is the eclectic nature of how people implement this today
[disclaimer, even if you follow Shita X there is room for exceptions...]

My first Sahbbos In Teaneck I asked RDEK
Q: How come we omit here Baruch  hashem L'olamon weeknights and SAY
v'shamrua on Friday Nights?
A : What do you want from Me? I am stuck with these minhaggim!

IOW he did not defend the eclectic nature of the his own shul's minhaggim
which evolved willy nilly w/o a shita. Bt he did live with them.

Given:

> "An unexamined life is not worth living." -
>   --  *Socrates*

Might we say something like:

An unexamined Minhag is not worth impmlementing?
or an unexamined p'sak is not worth following?

To quote my friend Rabbi Ben Hecht:

> Where has all the philosophy gone?
>
To paraphrase"

> Where has all the drisha vachakira gone?
>

--
> Arie Folger
> http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com
> _______________________________________________
>

BY, Rema and Kitzur [by and large] submitted their  decisions  to a
hypothetical BD. ROY follows  Maran BY. Ben Ish Hay implements  as much
ARIZAL as the populace can handle.
Kaf hachayim quote as many sources as he can [ROY, too]

OTOH, MB seems to have a multi-faceted shita re: z'manei hayyom that leave
me confused. He does not seem to follow strictly  GRA nor Magen AVraham nor
Rabbeinu Tam nor Levush. See what I mean?

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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