[Avodah] Ashkenazim and Sephardim

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Dec 27, 2007 7:09 PM, Michael Makovi <mikewinddale at gmail.com> wrote:

> >From: "Michael Elzufon" <Michael at arnon.co.il>
> >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:18:41 +0200
>
> >What is the source for the claim that Ashkenazi practice came from Eretz
> >Israel and Sephardi practice came from Bavel? My impression has always
> >been the opposite.
>
> I read somewhere (I forget where) that the Sepharadim got their practice
> from the Geonim - just look at the Rif and the Rambam. Whereas the
> Ashkenazim got their practice from Israel through Italy. Where did you see
> this claim? Because I forgot where I saw it (but it's a nice thing to say to
> Sepharadim in Israel when they claim to be minhag Eretz Yisrael :)
>
> Of course, if this were the case, the Ashkenazim would follow the Talmud
> Yerushalmi, I would think
>

Problem the yersuhalmi was redacted circa 350 CE

It would be better to state that Italy and Ashkenaz follow Kallir
et.c[circa 580 CE] clsoer in time to the Bavli





> . So there must be more to it. But I don't know any more.
>
> I just took a look at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazim#Background_in_the_Roman_Empire.
> Very interesting. B'kitzur, it says that the Jews of Israel and the
> Mediterranean lasted a few centuries, and it is possible the Germanic
> invasion of Western Europe in the 5th century opened that area up to Jews.
> So this confirms what I say above. But the question that remains is, why
> don't Ashkenazim follow the Yerushalmi?
>

Micha:

The notion that Sepharadim come almost entirely from Bavel whereas
> Ashkenazim are primarily from EY, but a mix of both, is from Prof Agus.
> Search Avodah's archives for the name "Agus", this has been discussed
> repeatedly in the past.
>

This is hardly Agus's notion alone. Most of the major litrugicists subscribe
to it

If you follow bavli you cannot have piyyutim as per kallir.

See Tur 68 all of the nos'ei Keillim and SA taz
See Taz on SA 46:6

Kallir of EY and Meshullam ben Kalonymos of Lucca Italy wer major
cotnributors to ahsk. liturgy. This shows the link

EY [viz. Kallir v'sayaso] === [northern] Italy [the Kalonymos family] to
Ashkenaz

While Agus taught this to me it is not exclusively his idea. It is accepted

See the Sefer Minhag avoseinu beyadienu for examples of how Ahskenazim often
DO follow Yerushlami over Bavli

Look this one up. Se how Hasiba is treated in yerushalmi, then in Bavli and
then see Raabiyah's suspension of hasiaba altogehter!  If you follow the
sugyos then it makes sense for Raabiya to be simply relying upon Yerushalmi

Rabbinu Tam makes a statment in Sefer hayashr quoted by israel TA sham in
Minhag Ashknaz hakadomon [in the hkadamah]

if you do not accpet the Minhag of the kadmonim then don't accept the Bavli
becasue they BOTH STEM from the same source - namely the  Torah of EY.

In a footnote, he quotes the Or Zarua who is even more virulent in showing
how Minhag Ashkenaz often over-rode Bavli.

It is also clear that Rashi was loyal to the Ga'onim of Bavel and di not
quite feel this way on every issue [e.g. brach on hallel on rosh chodesh]


-- 

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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