[Avodah] The Kuzari, vindicated

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Dec 12, 2007 10:29 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 05:52:47PM -0500, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> : And AFAIK Rambam requires Jews to encourage non-Jews to observe the 7
> : mitzvos but not to encourage them to do more. AISI, the ONLY reason for
> a
> : non-Jew to do more is to be part of a national covenant.
>
> Or to serve as a kohein to the masses.
>
> A nazir pursues a higher qedushah without being in a "nazir" startion in
> the national structure.
>
> : If Judaism were a a requirement for "salvation" then we would be selfish
> or
> : miserly in discouraging converts.
>
> I fail to see the connection.
>
> But since you speak of redemption.... If Judaism is about national
> redemption, does the pious individual of a sinful generation or nation
> not get redeemed?
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --


You are confusing the giving of the Torah and Taryag mitzvos with judgment
Judgment of one's goodness/badness pre-dates and post-dates matan torah.

The point of Mtan Torah is national covneant.
the point of being a 'good person" applies to ALLL bnei noach and my point
is that Salvation can be gained with or without Torah

Peraps a JEW can only be justified via Torah or perhaps a Jew can STEP out.
Certainlyu halachah does not permit a jew to step out but I have no reason
to believe that  Someone like Esther who  hid her Jewishness  from all did
not de facto renounce her national identity etc.

Kashrus is not about individual spirituality -that is why it depends so much
upon communal standards.  Glatt Kosher is not a Torah imperative according
to Rem et. al. but it has evolved as communal standard for serous
practictioners of Kashrus.

bottom line: Torah is about COMMUNAL standards of concutcs [e.g. uvi'arta
hara mikirbecha] and not about individual perfection. [of cours indivdiuals
can do a biur of ra upon themselves but that is not the gist of that mitzva]

That said any society MUST accomodate individiual Tzadikim and chachamim.
So it would be inconsistent with a system of a comunity to be devoid of
Kohanim, levi'im, ne'vi'im etc.  Read parshas Mishpatim. You have virtually
every communal role outlined.   Perhaps SOME Torah people need to be ba'alei
mussar, but it is not THE Torah goal

If you can find frum Jews who can enumerate which Targyagmitzvots apply to
them in particualr I think you would have a point. Fact is, that eithr
people learn all 613 mitzvos or perhaps only that apply today such as the
Chofetz Chaim's Sefer Hamatzvos hakatzar. I don''t know anyone walking
around with a list of mitzvos that pallies uniquely to themselves.

The Torah's Taryag pre-supposes a nation in Israel with a king a Koehin
Gadol. this is the structure of a nation that goes to war, plants crops,
makes pilgrimmages etc. it is not a self-perfection manual. maybe the sifre
Emes and/or Koheles fit that bill.

Of course within the Torah there is appeal for righeous behavior. all of the
10 commandments are about a good society. I don't kill not to be a goodie
two-shoes but to keep a just society. Niuf is societal, that is why it is is
the 10 commandment, if it were about self-perfection perhaps all  illicit
conduct would have been listed.

The 10 commandmens does not say do not lie, it says do not give false
testimony about another. This is societal.

 The entire foundation of yetiz'as mitrayim is societalAsk yourself how come
HKBH took out so many resh'aim from mitzrayim!   If HKBH wanted
perfectionism He could have selected a really small subset.

or if HKBH wanted indivdual perfection He could have commanded do SOMETHING
to commerate the Exodus. L'havdil like Catholics give up something for Lent.
Rather he commenaded a national unified one-size-fits-all set of mitzvos and
a common primer/cathechism which is our haggadah.  Why not have a personal
seder " how yetiz'as mitzrayim makes ME a better yid?"  Very little
literature on that point. Rather we have a national text that talks about 4
banim,, 10/50/200/250 makkos etc.


Atem nitzvaim includes scotevie Eitzim  etc. [even Giv'onim!]  The Torah
speaks to a  PEOPLEHOOD.  This is articulated by l'ma'an yetzaveh. Avrahm's
tachlis is to pass on justice through his progeny

Nidividual tzaddikim can extis witha or withou Torah.
Noach/UIyyov/Shem/Ever/Yisro did it w/o Toah. For some reason the AVos did
Torah BEFORE matan Torah. I'm not sure WHY but the aforemention l'ma'an
yetzaveh comes to mind.  Certainly as a people we have Avos.

Do Xtians have Avos? I think not. Maybe Islam does..Otherwise, we are
perhaps the only religion I know that describes its God as God of its
ancestors?  Why? Holy Patriarchs. Holy Land. Holy City Holy Temple.  Common
Commandments. Hakheil.

Do monks who mediate all day in a quest for communion with G-d require any
of the above? Most monastics eshew society and seek solitude.
Self-perfection is certainly an ideal for lamed vavniks.  But I do not see
the concept of Torah as adressing jsut lamed vavniks. maybe Kabbalah is for
self-perfection.  Maybe the Zohar.  Is the Tachlis of Taryag to become
mekuuballim? Or is that for Yechidei Segulah?

-- 

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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