[Avodah] proofs of G-d

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Nov 20, 2007 1:31 PM, Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe at 012.net.il> wrote:

> R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> > <<Bottom line: I think Judaism, Torah, and religion in general would
> > be better off admitting that we really do not understand how God works
> > rather than parading around our speculations about God and claiming
> > them as Dogma.  There is a certain hubris from people that claim God
> > wants THIS or God wants THAT. How do they know? Did they receive a
> > prophecy?  I can quote Torah or Nevi'im and say that God has expressed
> > Himself in a givne verse as demanding X but I cannot say for sure that
> > given thecomplexity of a particular situation that God wants any
> > specific action. >>
> >
> > This is in essence the approach of RYBS . He was a philosopher and so
> > had the same problems. However, living in Israel,
> > ROY, R. Schach etc all know the reasons for every tragedy and
> > publically present a very simplistic picture.
> >
> >
> You are creating an false dichotomy between those who claim to know the
> reason for a calamity and those who don't make such claims or have
> doubts about their assertions. There is in fact a religious obligation
> to attribute suffering to specific shortcomings - as noted in the
> sources below.  In other words it is a recognized technique for teshuva
> to make causal links between suffering and sin. The question is whether
> the link is correct and the degree that people feel confident that they
> have identified the causal relationship. In addition how much
> uncertainty should a leader admit for the technique to work.
>
> Daniel Eidensohn
>


WADR it is one thing to attribute one's Own sufferings to one's own sin.
It is quite another to attribute suffering to YENNEM"s sin.  The holocaust
was due to the shortcoming of those xxx [fill in the blank]  Some Ashkenazim
blamed Sephardim for their lifestyle as contributing to the geirush and then
had to eat humble pie when tach vatat occured.

A navi can do this of course. Because  they say the Word of Hashem. Other
people are engaging in a practice tantamount to SAYANG they have actually
HEARD the WORD.  This is imho humbris plain and simple, it actaully borders
on claiming a definite knowledge of what God is saying.


Remember:
The Kohein Gadol had to first "humble" [humiliate?] himself by saying FIRST
hatasi avisu pashati ani uveisi BEFORE he said hat'u pash'u avu amcha beis
Yisroel. I wish more rabbanim  would follow that paradigm...

A real Tzaddik would say, my community is suffering due to MY OWN
SHORTCOMINGS!
Rav Schwab said simlar things about he lack of funds for his Yeshiva nad
persoanlly took the blame for late paychecks to his teachers.  Rav Schwab
was an anav!

When an Israeli Chief Rabbis start saying, woe unto us that I erred, I will
start listening.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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