[Avodah] lifnei iver/kanaus

[Yitzhak Grossman]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:28:51 -0500
"Michael Kopinsky" <mkopinsky at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/11/07, Celejar <celejar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:00:15 -0400
> > Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 01:10:22AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> > > : The Talmud/SA tells us that we may not hit a child past a certain age
> > [15
> > > : iirc] because he might hit you back and you would thereby trangress
> > lifnei
> > > : iver...on an issur of misas beis din no less.
> > >
> > > Might, not probably.
> > >
> > > Think of the gezeirah against blowing shofar on Shabbos. Takanos do not
> > > require a very high threshold of probability.
> >
> > I see no indication in the Gemara (MK 17a) or SA that this is a takanah
> > or gezeira; the gemara's language is that "he has violated lifnei
> > i'ver".
> 
> 
> I'm WAAAAY behind on Avodah, but....
> 
> The Gemara at the end of Eizehu Neshech (BM 75b) says:
> 
> "Amar Rav yehuda amar Rav: Kol mi sheyesh lo ma'os umalveh osan shelo b'edim
> oveir mishum v'lifnei iver lo sitein michsol, v'reish lakish omer gorem
> klalah l'atzmo."  In this case, the gemara also refers to it as lifnei iver,
> even though there is clearly no transgression taking place except in the
> unlikely circumstance that the loveh is kofeir.  This is most definitely not
> an issur of lifnei iveir.  It is at most a gezeirah/takanah.  (I have a

I disagree; many Aharonim seem to consider it bona fide lifnei iver.
I'm actually in the middle of a mult-part series about this Gemara on
my blog.  The first part is here [0], subsequent parts shall follow,
bg"h.

> comment penciled in the margin of my gemara directing me to Ritva Megilla
> 28a where he says that this is not an issur, but a middas chassidus.)  The
> same should apply to the gemara in MK 17a which uses a similar lashon.

The Divre Malkiel and the Be'er Sarim do indeed justify the prevailing
disregard of the prohibition based on that Ritva, as Part II of my
series will show, but the Be'er Sarim himself points out that this
understanding is clearly against the simple reading of the SA, who
(following Rambam) flatly states "assur".  Stay tuned to my blog!

> KT,
> Michael

[0] http://bdl.freehostia.com/2007/10/26/lead-us-not-into-temptation/

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat