[Avodah] Fwd: Women's zimun

[Meir Shinnar]

 From a discussion on areivim about women's zimun (transferred to  
avodah as per moderator - quotation of areivim is therefore  
presumably approved..)
>> RDW
>
>
>>
>> But then, I was the only one who pointed out that the GR"A  
>> paskened that
>> women's zimun is a must and not just optional.
>
>
> How about the rest of the quote from the Biur Halachacha
> that 'haolam lo noheg kach'.
>
> Notice he does not say 'bemedinot eilu' but 'haolam' implying that  
> while
> there is nothing wrong with their making a zimun, there is no  
> precedent in
> the world.
>
> Also earlier Rishonim, in the gemara of erchin, especially Rashi  
> and Tosefos
> hold it is a reshut not hova .
>
> Those who are avid followers of the GRA perhaps have the right to  
> discard
> all other opinions, but it is questionable for all others to reject a
> majority position for the sake of egaliterianism rather then being  
> Mekadshei
> Shem Shmayim by following an accepted precedent even if it's not
> egalitarian.

This is a fascinating leap.  RDW has brought down (as others have,  
but therefore he is clearly aware) - that the machloket is between  
those who hold it is a reshut versus those who hold it is a chova -  
he doesn't bring any one who has any issue at all with women saying  
zimun.

Furthermore, while few women actually practiced zimmun - and I don't  
think that people dispute that historically, few women did say zimun  
(as few women also learned tanach seriously...) - and the mishna  
brura brings down that this was the practice - the mishna brura also  
is careful not to go the extra step and say that therefore they  
shouldn't do it.  Indeed, he  brings down the opinion that the reason  
why women didn't do it  (and why, according to some of those who hold  
it is a reshut, women were not obligated) - is precisely the lack of  
education of women - and the chofetz chaim was acutely aware of the  
issue of education of women - and how it impacts on what one requires  
of them.  One can reasonably argue that today, amongst communities  
where women are educated enough to say zimun for themselves - it  
becomes the preferred option (even if still a reshut)- and major  
poskim (eg, the ben ish chai) did make this natural step..

However, while, one can reasonably argue that it is a majority  
opinion that zimun was and still remains a reshut - but to transform  
it being a reshut rather than a chova into viewing a positive value  
(mekadshei shem shmayim !!!!!) in deciding not to do the reshut is  
amazing - and I would argue a ziyuf hatorah.  One may choose not to  
do a reshut - but to denigrate those who choose a reshut is to  
transform one's community's value of radical anti feminism into a  
torah value - no less problematic than (and indeed equivalent to )    
those who transform their community's value egalitarianism into a  
torah value - and deserves a public mecha'a.

Meir Shinnar